Who was free of arm injuries?


#1

I was wondering what major league pitchers who’ve had long careers have been free of any serious arm injury?

I’m talking no Tommy John, and no partial rotator cuff tears that put them on the DL? … it seems that so many guys have had arm surgery in their past.

Tom Glavine has had no injuries like that. But who else?

I think Nolan Ryan is one. I though Clemens was another, but it was said in a thread last week that he had shoulder issues earlier in his career.


#2

i dont think Maddux had any ARM injuries, i dont know if I’m right.

Mike Mussina???


#3

Here are some (non-knuckleball) pitchers who have had long, injury-free careers…

  • Greg Maddux
  • Tom Glavine
  • Kenny Rogers (even though he is a cheater)
  • Tom Seaver

#4

I know Mussina has missed starts here or there with arm complaints, but I don’t think he’s been under the knife. Good one.


#5

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]Here are some (non-knuckleball) pitchers who have had long, injury-free careers…

  • Greg Maddux
  • Tom Glavine
  • Kenny Rogers (even though he is a cheater)
  • Tom Seaver[/quote]

Short list, isn’t it. Hey, Coach45, interesting, huh? :wink:


#6

add Fergie Jenkins, Ryan had bone chips removed a couple of times and NO Maddux hasn’t had any arm/shoulder injuries at all in 20+ yrs, I think Fernando broke or messed up everything but his arm, might be wrong…Lets not forget that all time great Jesse Orasko (Methusala Jr.). But if the inference of the post is “yep, it’s got the extreme possibility of injury at some point” then I would agree.


#7

Ryan also had ligament or tendon problems early on in his career. I’m not sure about stuff later on in his career.

Fernando ended up with problems, but some of that could be age-related (he may have been older than people thought).

Mussina hasn’t had major arm problems, but he has had some smaller stuff. So has Jamie Moyer.


#8

DM,

Nice to hear from you. Been way to busy to post much, but I keep reading. Things are getting close to proving a point. Summer 2007 will be revealing…I’ll let you know how it goes. Looks like a whole group of Doc’s guys are going to train with and throw for me on one team in a summer collegiate league. A couple are very close to being high-level ready, others less so. It’s going to be fun. Will look forward to picking this up with you.

Regarding you comment: interesting, yes. Tragic comes to mind. The real database is impossible to come by because MLB looks at the medical records as private. Best ESTIMATES I’ve seen based on compilations indicate well over 95% have some sort of reconstructive surgery. This doesn’t count the pile of bodies the top of the pyramid is built on, and it also doesn’t reflect the knee and longterm hip injuries.

This is where Chris goes wrong: all you have to do is point to a pitcher and say there’s a 95% chance they’ll end up on the table. Wow, to call that prediction. Chris, I’ve tried to steer you in some other directions in the past and I don’t have time for dissertations right now. Unfortunately I think you’ve closed your mind off to real solutions. The short list above should drive this home. By the way, in a pure biomechanical sense Greg Maddux does one thing (and one thing only) well. He pronates the heck out of every pitch he throws…that’s why his pitches have the life they do. You have chosen a poor example. Heck of a pitcher, and not one to base your ideas on. When you brandish around one scout and your affiliation I offer that it would be wise to say much less. You don’t know whose ear I have.


#9

“Best ESTIMATES I’ve seen based on compilations indicate well over 95% have some sort of reconstructive surgery.”

That’s incredible. It just goes to show you…


#10

Coach45 in all due respect you have to be completely out of your mind!

“By the way, in a pure biomechanical sense Greg Maddux does one thing (and one thing only) well. He pronates the heck out of every pitch he throws…that’s why his pitches have the life they do. You have chosen a poor example”

I don’t stand anywhere in the arguement about Chris and his statements but to say Maddux does “only” one thing right? Other than everything else he’s done? Who are you kidding here? 20 years+ injury free and “only” does one thing right? Man…MM didn’t go injury free at all and oh by the way Maddux won 3x the Cy. You stretch credability with such statements. I don’t mean to be incendiary but you have no logic behind your statement on the face of it so I encourage elaboration.


#11

Coach45, the difference between what I am trying to do and what you say I am doing is that I discuss guys that I think are more likely to be injured and guys who are less likely to be injured. I will grant you that it’s easy to say that a player will be injured. It’s much harder to say whether a person is more or less likely to be injured.

Another difference is that I give a sense of WHEN a guy will be injured. I don’t just say whether a guy will be injured at some point in his career. If I am right Anthony Reyes will start having shoulder problems in the next two years, not just at some point in his career.

I haven’t closed my mind to real solutions. I just am not convinced that the traditional pitching motion is as irreparably broken as Dr. Marshall thinks it is (I don’t think that the longevity of Greg Maddux is just a fluke). I also think that some of Dr. Marshall’s pure ideas are relatively high risk. That’s why I’m not comfortable advocating them and instead am currently advocating Greg Maddux’s mechanics.

Also, please do not criticize me for not having full information on Dr. Marshall’s ideas. I have done everything possible to understand what Dr. Marshall is talking about, including getting from Dr. Marshall the new Jeff Sparks video.

It’s not my fault that you never sent me the clips of your son pitching that I have asked for on multiple occasions. If you had sent them to me, then I would have been able to give people better information.

Please don’t suggest that I’m not trying to understand what Dr. Marshall is talking about.

First, there’s a reason why I haven’t made public what person and what team I am working with. I hope you don’t betray the trust I placed in you.

Second, I’m glad you are also having success in talking to people. I know that there are open-minded people out there, but they can be hard to find.

Third, I hope that Daisuke Matsuzaka is successful because that success may open people’s minds to pitchers who throw more than just a fastball and a slider.


#12

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]

  • Kenny Rogers (even though he is a cheater)[/quote]

what’s up with that? that’s probably one of the stupidest post you ever made.

don sutton cheated, gaylord perry cheated, whitey ford cheated they still had arm injuries and if cheating would make my arm healthy, god you can be sure i’m hiding a emery board in my glove next time or bring vaseline on the field. that was just a useless comment.


#13

I think Chris was just try to take another jab at Kenny. I doubt he thinks pine tar on his thumb equates to good health.

I really didn’t want this to turn into a kenny rogers thread, but I do agree with you 4pie that using a little bit of a foreign substance is no big deal. And far be it for cardinal fans to now speak about other teams gaining unfair advantages, cuz, uh, wasn’t there a guy named, like, Mitch McGee or something like that who used to play 1st base for them.


#14

The difference is that he was OUR cheater. :wink:


#15

[quote=“jdfromfla”]Coach45 in all due respect you have to be completely out of your mind!

“By the way, in a pure biomechanical sense Greg Maddux does one thing (and one thing only) well. He pronates the heck out of every pitch he throws…that’s why his pitches have the life they do. You have chosen a poor example”

I don’t stand anywhere in the arguement about Chris and his statements but to say Maddux does “only” one thing right? Other than everything else he’s done? Who are you kidding here? 20 years+ injury free and “only” does one thing right? Man…MM didn’t go injury free at all and oh by the way Maddux won 3x the Cy. You stretch credability with such statements. I don’t mean to be incendiary but you have no logic behind your statement on the face of it so I encourage elaboration.[/quote]

JD,

I don’t take your comments as incendiary at all. Thank you for offering me the opportunity to clarify myself. First off, I have extremely high regard for Greg Maddux, both as a pitcher and as an individual. On top of immense physical skill he is also a whole lot smarter than the average bear, and a class act to boot.

Regarding my earlier statement about please note these words very carefully: “in a pure biomechanical sense.” Several of the things he does, mechanically, are damaging. He does enough right, by actively pronating pitch releases, to mitigate most of the damage to his elbow and front of his shoulder. However, longterm I suspect he has compromised his elbow range of motion. We wouldn’t know that without measuring. Second, from a biomechanical standpoint, when he levers his bodyweight out over his glove-side knee, many times I observe that he hyperextends the knee. The cumulative damage from this is problematic. At the same time he levers outward over the knee he puts force on his left hip in a way that is causing cumulative damage. Some of the pitches I’ve observed show that, at times, he gets enough upper body rotation to take unnecessary stress off the back of the shoulder, at other times he doesn’t. There are other details as well that lead me to make my statement. Anatomically (and kinetically) there are substantial flaws in what he does, from a purely biomechanical perspective. In spite of these things what he has accomplished is stunning.

The single thing he does that differentiates him from almost everyone else is that he ACTIVELY pronates pitch releases. I am positive this is the single dominant biomechanical factor that contributes to his longevity and durability. It’s also why his pitches move late and hard.

This is also basically what Marshall did when he threw professionally. While you are correct that Marshall was injured, his injury is very unique. He pulled a rib off of the sternum. This was caused by attempting to throw a conventional curveball while pronating the end of the release. If you understand the forces required for this specific set of movements, while throwing a pitch, you understand that he contracted the pec so hard that he ripped a rib loose. Biomechanically that’s awful. This injury led him, years later, to develop a very different curveball release…the one he now teaches.

What I’m talking about is a biomechanical ideal, in part theoretical. But if someone, anyone, does not look to the future we are doomed to repeat the past. Have you heard the acronym TINSTAAPP?..There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect. If you look at the literal pile of busted wings that MLB is built on, the phrase rings true. I think it’s wholly inappropriate to look at an example like Greg Maddux and say ‘that’s as good as it can get.’ The vision of the possibility the something might be better, one that doesn’t damage the majority along the way, is what drives me.

Whether you agree with me or not, I hope that my statements restore a bit of the credibility you seem to see as wavering. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.


#16

Chris,

Please know that I would NEVER betray a trust. Also know that when you run some of those comments up the flagpole you’re asking for it. You’re right that open-minded baseball insiders are very hard to find. I would like to wish you success, and what really holds me back is that you’re missing some critical things and it really muddies the waters.

I’ve tried very hard to make certain clips of my son go out and forgive me if I overlooked your request(s). Those clips will not answer the puzzle pieces for you because some of the work isn’t complete. However it’s getting very close. Because I’m so familiar with the entire process I know there are specific items that need to be communicated. Can’t be done with words. Must be done visually, and I’m working on it. But what I can tell you with a VERY high degree of certainty is that in several ways you’re barking up the wrong tree.

I’m going to take this offline and give you a call.


#17

“The single thing he does that differentiates him from almost everyone else is that he ACTIVELY pronates pitch releases.”

Then at this point we should be able to mail it in. Pronate actively=20+ yr 200+ inning seasons, 15 Gold Gloves, 300 Wins, 3000 k’s, no appaerent injuries (Though you seem to be implying some hidden one), one of lowest K-BB ratios ever…am I forgetting something here? I think if Greg has a lingering ache or pain that his umpterzillions can get it fixed. How many generations of Maddux’s will be wealthy due to him? No I really do admire the altuistic nature of the things you propose. I wish only the best for your son. I feel though that if your boy (God Forbid) is injured, we’ll just hear that he wasn’t doing it as Mike envisioned.
Seriously Coach, if twenty injury free years of anything happens with that sort of success and reward, what part of that isn’t worth aspiring to? If you think about it, I’ll give you a small analogy, my son (Eldest) is a Wildlands Firefighter, these hero’s have what I would consider a real risk, just to do their job (Which saves your and my life and property), which has only the reward of service…they make small money, state money and yet they hang out there because they love. You think MLB pitchers have it so terrible, do you realize that nearly all of these heros are injured within the core body system within their career, which usually ends it (Terrible back injury, burns, limb, lung, heart damage). They have not much more than barely welfare to take care of them in their old age? How about soldiers? Police Officers?
The guys who make the bigs receive handsome reward, if they manage just a few years they receive retirement benefits, not only that but their prospects remain good after the game, what with endorsements and coaching and Guruing, not to mention TV work, and the rolling events the Players Association has them attend for money, all over the world, as long as they can stand it. So in my humble opinion Coach, you are attempting to provide a cure without a patient.
You are one the most interesting people I’ve ever debated Coach, I wish we could have sat and had lunch last time you were in the state, I live outside of Jacksonville, so Zhills/Tampa are just three hours away…maybe next time.


#18

JD,

I’ll be in Tampa on the 6th and 7th of March. Might have time later in the day on the 7th if you are available. This spring I’ll be there often for a number of reasons. I’d very much enjoy getting acquainted face to face and relish telling you more of this story than I’m willing to put out in public right now.

I relate personally with your eldest son’s job, so I understand your analogy. Spent several summers on wildland fire crews and one full fire season on a helitack hotshot crew out of the Boise Interagency Fire Center. It’s been renamed now and I don’t recall the new name. I was a crew boss and a saw boss, sometimes responsible for the lives of 20 men. I’ve lost friends in helicopter crashes. God bless the men and women who stand between us and harms way; civilian or military. Suffice it to say I count my blessings.

When our sons are involved in something hazardous it puts a very different spin on things. Regarding a cure without a patient I respectfully disagree. One reason is that I’m one of the guys that got hurt…in college. I’ve had shoulder surgery and there are days, sometimes many, when it’s a real drag. I have no desire for my son to go through what I have, and wish no less for others sons. When you consider that the odds of making it all the way are very close to zero, for many to suffer it strikes me as pointless and even stupid, all for the name of a game. Altruistic? Maybe. But it’s really about pursuit of truth and a better way to do things. If these problems can be fixed and the game remain equal or better, the sons of generations to come stand to benefit. I’m more interested in others than self.

But I will tell you this, that if in this process my son was injured, I would tell the world and do my best to put a stop to something that didn’t work. And on the flip side if it works the way it now appears, we’re all going to know about it anyway. Active pronation is only part of the story.

Coach45


#19

Man you just have to have read “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”…if you don’t understand the ref. read the book.

Good luck on the truth thing…I would bet that if Marshall didn’t have eloqunce as well crafted as yours, he’d die a crazy lonely old coot in someones back apartment. A Moe Berg enigma (“He was brilliant wasn’t he?”).

People like you always make me want to start groups like Ben Franklin used to do, they were called Juntos and were comprised of the people that make a place work, engineers, attorneys, doctors,obviously printers and they would take on problems to solve them, what many don’t know is that Franklin started so many things …(For instance he initiated street cleaning, volunteer firefighters, libraries and when his brother in-law had a urinary infection he designed and had made the 1st known cathiter, this guy made the 1st map of the Gulf Stream!). Sorry to digress… :oops:

I am sorry about your injury…my lingering injuries come from improper weightlifting, but I wouldn’t charactorize our lives by our injuries, you seem unencumbered, I would submit the contrary you seem absolutely vitalized and motivated by it. Just like your fire fighting that also was part of the crucible that makes you, you.
Well…I’m watching. History and historic moments have happened aplenty in my 47 years, so when your son or some other follower of Mike passes all of Greg’s accomplishments and pitches on another 10 or 15 after that, I’ll smile, know I was within the discussion and watch the change.