Who Do You Think Is The Greatest Pitcher Ever?


#1

Just curious what you guys think, also what current younger players in the MLB do you think will have great careers?


#2

def Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux would have to be up there. I dont want to talk about guys I haven’t seen. Randy Johnson as well.


#3

johan santana in my opinion while have a hall of fame career but the best pitcher from my point of view was nolan ryan.


#4

Santana and Oswalt seem to have the best stats among young pitchers. Over a long career Warren Spahn and more recently Pedro Martinez seem to have the best results other than a couple from way back when. Ryan didn’t have a very good win-loss percentage, despite having a good but not amazing career ERA. Probably all the baserunners he allowed led to more unearned runs.

Clemens belongs in the mix also but although he’s had a great career I don’t think Maddux quite gets there. He’s been more about longevity and consistency than being a dominant pitcher.


#5

pedro martinez is seriously so amazing it’s hard to believe he’s been in the majors for like 15 years? he never lost more than 10 games despite being with my poor runs support expos and not being in the top of his shape the last few years. he lost 10 games only 2 times too. i’d say that’s what you call dominate.


#6

Pedro has definately had a great career. Although, you must remember when he was with the expos, they were picked to win the world series in 94 (then strike happened), 95 they were bad, but still had talent, and 96 they finished 2nd behind the braves doing quite well.

As far as Maddux goes, he’s a brilliant pitcher, but cannot be up there at the top. He is exceptional, but he doesn’t necessarily dominate the game, basically, I think great pitchers can be guys that use the guys behind them a lot. I think to be the BEST though, you have to have the ability to get it done without help when your not getting any.

I think Santana is up there as far as young pitchers in the majors today. His stuff is just sick, and really not fair to the hitters. He’s a guy that the hitters don’t even look confident against.

For the days of old, I think Bob Gibson was incredibly impressive, with his dominating stuff, ability to win the big game, and incredible intimidation. I mean come on, he’s the reason we’re only pitching on 10"mounds rather than 12"s.

Walter Johnson had a storied career, although he pitched in a defensive era, that doesn’t make him less great, just harder to compare to players of today. His number we’re incredible, and his fastball said to be devastating.
I’ve read a story that one game it was getting dark, and he had a meeting at the mound with his catcher. The catcher took the ball and went to home plate. Johnson got on the mound and went through the motion of throwing. The catcher than pounded his glove and proceeded to throw the ball back for what was ruled a strike.

Just a little baseball folklore for ya.


#7

Nolan Ryan
Bob Gibson


#8

Nice Thread:

I’m going back a little bit.

#1 Walter Johnson

#2 Cy Young - after all they named THE award after him

then Feller, Carlton, Gibson, Spahn, Ryan and Randy Johnson


#9

Pedro has definately had a great career. Although, you must remember when he was with the expos, they were picked to win the world series in 94 (then strike happened), 95 they were bad, but still had talent, and 96 they finished 2nd behind the braves doing quite well.

As far as Maddux goes, he’s a brilliant pitcher, but cannot be up there at the top. He is exceptional, but he doesn’t necessarily dominate the game, basically, I think great pitchers can be guys that use the guys behind them a lot. I think to be the BEST though, you have to have the ability to get it done without help when your not getting any.

I think Santana is up there as far as young pitchers in the majors today. His stuff is just sick, and really not fair to the hitters. He’s a guy that the hitters don’t even look confident against.

For the days of old, I think Bob Gibson was incredibly impressive, with his dominating stuff, ability to win the big game, and incredible intimidation. I mean come on, he’s the reason we’re only pitching on 10"mounds rather than 12"s.

Walter Johnson had a storied career, although he pitched in a defensive era, that doesn’t make him less great, just harder to compare to players of today. His number we’re incredible, and his fastball said to be devastating.
I’ve read a story that one game it was getting dark, and he had a meeting at the mound with his catcher. The catcher took the ball and went to home plate. Johnson got on the mound and went through the motion of throwing. The catcher than pounded his glove and proceeded to throw the ball back for what was ruled a strike.

Just a little baseball folklore for ya.[/quote]

never heard that story and it was petty good.


#10

I can only go on guys I’ve seen, and Pedro is the best I’ve seen.

I used to think it was Clemens, but I’m pretty sure he’s been hitting the roids.


#11

[quote=“Dino”]Nice Thread:

I’m going back a little bit.

#1 Walter Johnson

#2 Cy Young - after all they named THE award after him

then Feller, Carlton, Gibson, Spahn, Ryan and Randy Johnson[/quote]

Thanks I figured it would be an interesting one. I used to love Randy Johnson when I was younger. How come Greg Maddux shouldn’t be mentioned? I agree he doesn’t actually dominate in a strikeout sense but doesn’t he dominate in a different way? He is not the same type of pitcher as most pitchers. Just a thought.


#12

[quote=“Wooddell89”][quote=“Dino”]Nice Thread:

I’m going back a little bit.

#1 Walter Johnson

#2 Cy Young - after all they named THE award after him

then Feller, Carlton, Gibson, Spahn, Ryan and Randy Johnson[/quote]

Thanks I figured it would be an interesting one. I used to love Randy Johnson when I was younger. How come Greg Maddux shouldn’t be mentioned? I agree he doesn’t actually dominate in a strikeout sense but doesn’t he dominate in a different way? He is not the same type of pitcher as most pitchers. Just a thought.[/quote]

i’d say he pretty much dominates in the strike out sense too. you probably couldn’t count every strike out looking he got on 2-seam fastballs


#13

There’s no question that Maddux was intimidating and dominating back in the mid-90s.


#14

[quote=“4pie”][quote=“Wooddell89”][quote=“Dino”]Nice Thread:

I’m going back a little bit.

#1 Walter Johnson

#2 Cy Young - after all they named THE award after him

then Feller, Carlton, Gibson, Spahn, Ryan and Randy Johnson[/quote]

Thanks I figured it would be an interesting one. I used to love Randy Johnson when I was younger. How come Greg Maddux shouldn’t be mentioned? I agree he doesn’t actually dominate in a strikeout sense but doesn’t he dominate in a different way? He is not the same type of pitcher as most pitchers. Just a thought.[/quote]

i’d say he pretty much dominates in the strike out sense too. you probably couldn’t count every strike out looking he got on 2-seam fastballs[/quote]

yeah true but he’s not really a power pitcher.


#15

In the history of pitchers, I think Maddux and Clemens, rank in the top 5, Randy Johnson being a top 15, and then Glavine as a top 25.

Ah, the ever enduring debate between Maddux and Clemens, a popular debate topic among pitching nerds.

From a purely statistical analysis, I would say Maddux has a slight edge. While being 15 wins behind Clemens, Maddux has a lower career ERA and WHIP. To me, a strikeout is just an out, and the number of strikeouts a person has is not tantamount to their dominance. Yet what impresses me the most is Maddux is one of only three players to have 3000’s and having less than 1000 bbs (most likely to be four players if Martinez does not retire). For the past four seasons, Maddux has not walked more than 37 batters. While Clemens has 7 Cy Youngs, a record, Maddux has 4, the third most in baseball history. While some of the awardings to Clemens I don’t particularly agree with, a Cy Young Aware shows a pitcher’s dominance in a single season, not his whole career. Clemens has actually been quite inconsistant all throughout his Major League career, being plagued with injuries and just not being able to pitch effectively. Maddux, on the other hand, is a champion of consistancy and fitness. Since becoming a full-fledged starting pitcher in '88, he has logged at least 200 innings all but once in 19 seasons. Also since '88 until '05, a streak of at least 15 wins for 17 seasons, a record that beats Cy Young’s. Also there is Maddux’s defense. Clemens holds 0 (zero) Gold Gloves while Maddux has a record-tying 16. Maddux could become the single holder of the most Gold Gloves by any major leaguer if he continues his excellent defense into the 2007 season.

From a non-statistical standpoint, I’m even more inclined to side with Maddux. Clemens was blessed with a great mid-90s fastball, and he eventually discovered he possessed a splitter on par with Bruce Sutter. Maddux doesn’t have any trick or special pitches. Hell, in his prime, he could barely throw 90 MPH with a nice tail wind. Which is what makes him so great. On the mound, Maddux is a genius. His cunning and ability to out-think batters by locating and changing speeds is what makes him so special. He uses one of the most under-appreciated gifts of mankind: his brain.

And another thing with Maddux you can be fairly certain about is that he never used steroids. With Clemens, it’s not possible to say: Clemens was implicated by Canseco (who had implicated and had been right about others in steroid scandals, including Palmeiro) implicated in the Grimsley report, and if you look at his recent stats, they parallel those of Mark McGwire, who had a “late career resurgence.” To be honest, I don’t believe Clemens. I think he’s a cheater. So, with much certainty, I am convinced that Maddux is not only better than Clemens, but is the best pitcher of his era and one of the best of all time.


#16

[quote=“HateSnake”]In the history of pitchers, I think Maddux and Clemens, rank in the top 5, Randy Johnson being a top 15, and then Glavine as a top 25.

Ah, the ever enduring debate between Maddux and Clemens, a popular debate topic among pitching nerds.

From a purely statistical analysis, I would say Maddux has a slight edge. While being 15 wins behind Clemens, Maddux has a lower career ERA and WHIP. To me, a strikeout is just an out, and the number of strikeouts a person has is not tantamount to their dominance. Yet what impresses me the most is Maddux is one of only three players to have 3000’s and having less than 1000 bbs (most likely to be four players if Martinez does not retire). For the past four seasons, Maddux has not walked more than 37 batters. While Clemens has 7 Cy Youngs, a record, Maddux has 4, the third most in baseball history. While some of the awardings to Clemens I don’t particularly agree with, a Cy Young Aware shows a pitcher’s dominance in a single season, not his whole career. Clemens has actually been quite inconsistant all throughout his Major League career, being plagued with injuries and just not being able to pitch effectively. Maddux, on the other hand, is a champion of consistancy and fitness. Since becoming a full-fledged starting pitcher in '88, he has logged at least 200 innings all but once in 19 seasons. Also since '88 until '05, a streak of at least 15 wins for 17 seasons, a record that beats Cy Young’s. Also there is Maddux’s defense. Clemens holds 0 (zero) Gold Gloves while Maddux has a record-tying 16. Maddux could become the single holder of the most Gold Gloves by any major leaguer if he continues his excellent defense into the 2007 season.

From a non-statistical standpoint, I’m even more inclined to side with Maddux. Clemens was blessed with a great mid-90s fastball, and he eventually discovered he possessed a splitter on par with Bruce Sutter. Maddux doesn’t have any trick or special pitches. Hell, in his prime, he could barely throw 90 MPH with a nice tail wind. Which is what makes him so great. On the mound, Maddux is a genius. His cunning and ability to out-think batters by locating and changing speeds is what makes him so special. He uses one of the most under-appreciated gifts of mankind: his brain.

And another thing with Maddux you can be fairly certain about is that he never used steroids. With Clemens, it’s not possible to say: Clemens was implicated by Canseco (who had implicated and had been right about others in steroid scandals, including Palmeiro) implicated in the Grimsley report, and if you look at his recent stats, they parallel those of Mark McGwire, who had a “late career resurgence.” To be honest, I don’t believe Clemens. I think he’s a cheater. So, with much certainty, I am convinced that Maddux is not only better than Clemens, but is the best pitcher of his era and one of the best of all time.[/quote]

nice post, i like greg maddux a lot. I never knew Clemens may have done steroids but 2 people have brung it up. Do steroids actually make you throw harder or just mainly speed up recovery times?


#17

i don’t think steroids can make you throw harder i think it would just make pitchers able to throw longer and to be more healthy on a 5 days rest.


#18

Yeah, it can also make you throw a bit harder. Same as giving hitters steroids - their bat speed and arm strength, among other muscles, increases. But yeah, pitching velocity basically depends on a pitcher’s delivery.


#19

Just a couple of other Greg Maddux things, and Hate, a gold star from the Unauthorized School of Maddux to you.
1st, it can’t be over looked that he has never been on the dl (He missed 2 starts due to a back tweak) in 20 years, he’s never gone under the knife. Rocket, Nolan and Pedro have been cut on, in some cases multiple times. Pedro rarely makes it past the All Star break without going on the dl.
2nd, many may not consider him a dominant K pitcher but he has more than 3000, in his early career (80’s through mid 90’s) he normally had 12-16 k’s per outing. I think an average of over 150 k’s per year is dominating by anyones reckoning.
3rd, it can be intelligably argued that he is the, going away, very best defensive pitcher ever to toe a rubber (Kaat had 15 Gold Gloves also but his were more based on fielding pct.). I don’t recall in all of my time watching the sport, anyone with the snags he’s made (Behind the back, through the legs…it is just unbelievable). A friend of mine is an ex-Cub (Who was coincidently one of the 2 catchers that caught Greg for his 1st Cy…my sons pitching/hitting coach) and I’ve been trying to get him to get WGN to get me a clip of a play Greg made in 93, if I get it, you guys, will just not believe it…astonishing is the only word that fits.
4th, he had approx a 2 era when the balls were supposedly “juiced” mid 90’s through say 2002.
But my admiration for this man is always out there…Best ever? It’s certainly subjective.

I think the very best new pitcher is Carlos Zambrano, with respect to Santana, I was thinking Josh Beckett along with Carlos but he looks like he’s going to be a head case.

Can’t also not mention Bob Feller (17 year old major leaguer facing and wiping out the likes of Dimaggio and Williams). Bob Gibson caused the mound to be lowered. Here’s my last and some don’t even remember him, certainly the best Canadian ever to suit up, but Fergusen Jenkins had a stretch of like 10 years in a row, in which he won 20 or more, on some of the worst Cub teams that ever took the field.


#20

Satchel Paige was the best pitcher ever! Check out his stats.