Whats a good ball/strike% for a 13 YO?

No problem. Believe me, now that I’m getting’ up there in mileage myself, I understand.

As for the data, the main thing I use it for is to try to prove/disprove people’s PERCEPIONS as opposed to REALITY. For instance, as long as I can remember, I’ve heard that good hitting breeds good hitting, and how there are hitting frenzies.

For years I thought about that, and finally one day I actually took the bit in my teeth and gave it a shot. If you look at http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/4b.pdf you’ll see the final result.

Its pretty basic really, and shows what hits follow and the percentage of time it happens. The 1st page is how our hitters did, and the 2nd is how our pitchers fared. I found it very interesting to look at and study, and it led me to pursue looking into other things as well. The same thing happened when I started at looking at pitchers by whether or not there was a runner on for the at bat.

What looking at things in more than the old “standard” ways does for me, is it allows me to better understand some of the things that most people just accept as truth. But, it also sometimes makes it possible to see the how some of those things are not true as well. IOW, to me it’s an educational process, and I love gathering up all the knowledge I can. :wink:

Scorekeeper, much of your calculations etc. are so far above the average baseball players/parents/coaches taught process that it makes it very difficult to follow. Not saying that these things can’t improve a players understanding of baseball but many people need a bit smaller, baby steps to truly make it valuable to them. I read all your posts and even then some go above my head quickly.

just a comment since I would love to see this site continue to grow with lots of active members.

[quote=“buwhite”]Scorekeeper, much of your calculations etc. are so far above the average baseball players/parents/coaches taught process that it makes it very difficult to follow. Not saying that these things can’t improve a players understanding of baseball but many people need a bit smaller, baby steps to truly make it valuable to them. I read all your posts and even then some go above my head quickly.

just a comment since I would love to see this site continue to grow with lots of active members.[/quote]

I’ve gotta be careful here because I surely don’t want to offend anyone, nor do I want to come off a condescending. So bear with me, and try to understand that this is more a statement about the state of general understanding of regular old everyday baseball numbers than the state of arithmetic expertise.

I know it sounds trite, but the truth is, the base of most of the metrics I do now, I used to do when I was less than 10 years old, and so did most other kids I knew who played baseball where I grew up. We had to play games that actually required basic math skills. Most kids around me had some kind of baseball game that was played with spinning dials, dice, or something else, that allowed kids to simulate a ball game.

This was mine. http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/CadacoASB.htm We’d play seasons, meticulously keeping score and updating stats on everything from hitting, to fielding, to pitching, to base running. Although they usually supplied a graphic calculator to figure many of the things, most the kids I knew did what I did and just did the division or multiplication on the fly with a pencil and paper.

Many of us also dug a little bit, and did some of the things the big boys were doing. I’ll bet I sent 20 letters to Baseball Almanac, asking what numbers I should keep and how to compute the things they did. I also learned to use the library digging that stuff out. But I wasn’t alone! Like I said, it was “normal” for kids to know how those numbers on the back of baseball cards were figured, and normal to memorize them as well, and dig the numbers out of the box scores to update their favorite ML players.

However, those days are definitely a thing of the past. This generation of baseball players and most of their parents are generally so woefully ignorant about even something as simple as keeping score and the rules of the game, its unbelievable. Heck, in more than 10 years of scoring HS games, I haven’t found more than a handful of kids, and not many parents who could score a game. When I find parents that can do it, they’re either very close to my age, or they’d kept score for their kid sometime in the past.

But I know its not a matter of intelligence because every season I teach at least one 6 or 7 YO to keep score, along with any player who’s interested. And it doesn’t take long either. But the thing is, in my time we had no choice but to learn to do it ourselves, and it was just the “normal” thing to do.

Take for instance strike percentage. Every kid growing up when I did knew that if a batter swung at a ball, it was a strike. How much deep thinking does it take to know if the count is 0-0 and a player hits a foul ball it’s a strike, so therefore it’s a strike anytime. The difference is, a foul ball can’t be a strikeout unless it was an attempted bunt, but every kid also understood that a bunt is not a swing. So strike percentages are simple arithmetic. The number of strikes divided by the number of pitches, and its been that way as long as I can remember. Why so many people don’t understand that is beyond me. Heck, there’s a rule in OBR, 10.21, titled “Determining Percentage Records” for those who don’t know how MLB’s things are done. :wink:

What happens with a lot of the things I do, is that without the basic knowledge of scoring rules, and the knowledge of what common metrics in use today are, people get snowed. But there’s no reason for that because every single thing comes directly out of a scorebook. Its just how those numbers are manipulated that sometimes gets crazy, but except for some of the more wild things the Sabermaticians do, they’re all very simple things.

On my web site, www.infosports.com/scorekeeper I make almost all of the things I do available to everyone. For those who don’t understand some of the acronyms, I have a glossary available over on the left side of the page. But what happens a lot, is that people go to something like the combined pitching stats, and there’s so many different ones, and so many pages of them, they don’t even try to figure them out.

Tell ya what. You go there and pick any pitching stat you want, look at it for a few minutes, and if you can’t understand every single thing on it, either choose the Contact Scorekeeper link to send me an e-mail, or ask what you want here, and if I can’t explain it so that you can completely understand it, I’ll remove it from the metrics I do. How’s that for an offer? Heck, I’ll even go one better. I’ll bet if your boy doesn’t understand it just by looking at it, and I can’t get him to completely understand it, I do the same and remove it. :smiley:

I’m definitely not saying that what you write is not valuable, it is very valuable, but how can your information be valuable to someone with more limited understanding of the value of numbers and understanding them. You definitely have a stronger comprehension of cybermetrics vs the average baseball parent or baseball pitcher. I just would like to see more of your calculations understood by more of them. I think we need good debate about these things but only to promote the understanding of baseball.

I don’t think you want to be much over 70%. The object should be to get ahead with a first pitch strike then work the corners where you force a batter too swing at a marginable pitch.

Yea, we forget about 1st pitch strikes sometimes when it’s all about strike %. So what is a good 1st pitch strike percentage…60% - 70%, 62.7725?

I think it should be above 60% but should it be above 70%?

I never took what you said as saying that what I write has little or no value. Believe me, I spend a heck of a lot of time explaining many of the metrics I generate. And believe it or not, the coaches are some of the least understanding of all. At least with most parents and players, they don’t have any preconceived ideas about what should or shouldn’t be true.

Many coaches, especially the younger ones, most of whom were players who spent careers listening to all the clichés and dogma, to the point where they still believe a lot of things that have been long proven to be less than beneficial. And many of the old ones haven’t taken advantage of many of the new things and most recent knowledge available.

But, I honestly never get mad at anyone for displaying ignorance. If possible, I do what I can to inform or point people in the right direction to find their own answers. In fact, I get a lot of satisfaction out of helping people understand some metric, or explain some scoring rule, or do my best to explain something else they might be “off base” in there thinking about.

Here’s an example. The following link contains 3 newsletters I wrote. One from ’07, one from ‘09 and one from ’10. You’re welcome to read the whole things, but if you just page down to where you see blue font, and read what that is and why I put it in there, you’ll get some idea what I’m talking about. http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/Glossary.pdf

Heck, I’d love to see more people understand it myself, but there’s a strange phenomenon that takes place with something like that. The old saying, “You can lead a horse to water …” really applies. Someone like me has no idea what anyone else knows, or what they’d like to know, unless they give some kind of indication. The last thing I’d do, is grab anyone by the scruff of the neck and force them to read anything. And I’m not gonna constantly ask people if they saw something or had any questions about something either.

When I was a child, my parents made it very clear to me that if there was something I wanted to know or had a question about, I had to speak up. So all the time I was in K-12, I never hesitated to as a question when I really didn’t’ understand something, and it served me well. But while everyone wasn’t like that, in general the kids who got the best grades were generally the one’s you’d see with their hands in the air.

And that’s what I see happening with this stuff in baseball. Its as though folks think they’re gonna be sent to stand in the corner with a Dunce cap on! So rather than show ignorance, they’ll stay ignorant, and fake their way through. There’s really nothing someone like myself can do unless people ask. Heck, I’d love nothing more than explain how to keep score. In fact, 2 years ago I began writing a scorekeeping “How To”. I thought I did a pretty good job, and those who have seen it think so too, but unless one wants to really know how to keep score, its just too complicated and specific, and people don’t want complicated and specific anymore. They want Twitter length communications so they don’t have to waste any of their precious time. :frowning:

About the best I can offer is to explain any metric I do to the best of my ability, and to let anyone have that scorekeeping tome if they want, and explain anything I can about SKing. Other than that, I’m pretty much at a loss as to what to do to force people to drink. LOL!

Why not over 70%? Why is it better to get a batter to swing at a “marginal” pitch than one in the strike zone?

[quote=“buwhite”]Yea, we forget about 1st pitch strikes sometimes when it’s all about strike %. So what is a good 1st pitch strike percentage…60% - 70%, 62.7725?

I think it should be above 60% but should it be above 70%?[/quote]

Take a look at the link. Remember, those are HS V pitchers.
http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/4bu1.pdf

I think you can see that your perception is something that just doesn’t meet with reality. In 4 years there were only 5 pitchers on our team who reached 60%, and between two of them, they only threw to a total of 34 batters. The #3 kid was a reliever and 5th starter, and didn’t throw many innings against teams that were .500 or better.

Those next two were definitely freaky. Last year Stillwell was a So and Castro a Jr, and between them they were 13-1, and that included some very stiff opposition, but also a few teams that weren’t very good as well. We’ll see what happens this year. Personally, I hope they have an even better year as far as percentages go, but I wouldn’t count on it. The best I’ve seen for any length of time at 1st pitch strike percentage, was 63.8% to 799 batters in HSV.

That makes my answer, based on real numbers, 60%. That’s quite a good 1st pitch strike percentage. That’s not to say 70% wouldn’t be a lot better. Anyone who watched this year’s post season can testify what happens when a ML pitcher gets upwards of 65-70%. :wink:

Last year my 13 year olds strike % was 63% but the team didn’t keep 1st strike % ever, just got that % from what is in the book. His % is down from 12u of 70%, maybe it is the extra distance or the fact that he says he is trying to work the corners so much more now and not leave anything in the middle. I will try and keep track of 1st pitch strikes this year, maybe just a running total vs trying to get the book to do it.

So maybe for 1st pitch strikes
40% is average
50 % is good
60 % is excellent and
70% is brilliant

[quote=“buwhite”]Last year my 13 year olds strike % was 63% but the team didn’t keep 1st strike % ever, just got that % from what is in the book. His % is down from 12u of 70%, maybe it is the extra distance or the fact that he says he is trying to work the corners so much more now and not leave anything in the middle. I will try and keep track of 1st pitch strikes this year, maybe just a running total vs trying to get the book to do it.

So maybe for 1st pitch strikes
40% is average
50 % is good
60 % is excellent and
70% is brilliant[/quote]

Having seen quite a few scorebooks, I can tell you that getting an accurate pitch count or 1st pitch strike count from one, unless the scorer is making sure to designate them somehow, is impossible. Here’s an excerpt from that “How To” thing I wrote.

[i][color=blue][b]… With that in mind, let’s take a look at how to mark the ball and strike count. All that’s absolutely necessary is to put some kind of mark in one of the little boxes to indicate a ball or a strike, and make the sheet reflect only the umpire’s count. That’s all well and good, but the modern game has pretty much made that minimum standard obsolete. I won’t go into all the reasons for accounting for every single pitch, but I will say that it gives a statistician much more flexibility in what kind of stats he can generate.

What I’ve come to do is to mark each pitch in the sequence they are delivered. For instance, if the first pitch is a ball, I enter a “1” in the first box for balls. If the second pitch is a strike, I enter a “2” in the first box for strikes, and continue that way until the at bat is over. That allows me to generate a report on 1st pitch strikes among others, which in the modern game is seen as an important statistic.

I also mark foul balls past the second strike even though they don’t alter the umpire’s count. There’s a reason for that though. In some organizations there are pitching limitations based on the number of pitches thrown. Unless every pitch is accurately marked, there’s no way to get an accurate pitch count. Also, with all the material available on pitching injuries, in the modern game many coaches are much more cognizant of the number of pitches the pitcher has thrown than in the past. …[/b][/color][/i]

My advice to you is this. If you really are interested in things like that, volunteer to be the team SK! My guess is, you’re gonna be at the games anyway, so why not perform a service to the team and the coach, while at the same time, answering some questions for yourself? You have my promise to help in any way I can, even down to giving you the program I use to do the stats. Believe me, unless your school is very different than any I’ve seen before, your help will be appreciated, especially at the Fr and JV level. The VHC may have someone like myself already picked to do the job, but if he’s anything like me, he’ll appreciate having someone available to take over for a break once in a while, or to do a game he can’t make it to.

Not only that, this year MaxPreps has made it possible to enter JV and FR data and stats just like the V. You could do that, including putting in the schedule, roster, pictures, and other info on the players. Heck, I’ll even send you the template for my newsletter. Its fun to do, and the parents absolutely love it, especially the ones who can’t make the games. Yessiree bu, here’s the chance for you to be a positive impact parent.

How ‘bout it? R U tempted? :wink:

Still 14 u this year and I will be in the game so much that it makes it impossible…I hope that I can make a highschool team above Freshman team so I will consider that it would be something then.

I’m sorry. I thought you were the parent in your house.

OK, let’s work on your dad!! Maybe we can convince him to get in there and sacrifice a few hours for every game. :wink:

If you don’t mind, what state do you live in, how big is your school, and how populous is your area? Is it “normal” for FR to make the JV and/or V?

That might cut into his sunflower eating time. :lol:

I am in Kansas. School is about 1600 students, 400 per grade, our area is a total of 200,00 people It’s normal for freshman to make the “C” team but not the JV or V team. My brother went out for the team last year and made the freshman team. He’s a good defensive player and was a little weak with the bat…that was last year and he has improved a bunch over this fall since my dad started workin with him. I pitch to my brother a couple times a month and I work him quite a bit. I think it would be cool if my brother plays JV as a Junior next year (I know he wants V) and I could make JV as a freshman. He says that no one he faced while he was on the freshman team threw harder than I do now or have the junk I do too.

FYI, our school has Freshman, C team, JV and V teams, other schools only have the C team and no freshman so the freshman team played a lot of C teams.

[quote=“scorekeeper”

I know it sounds trite, but the truth is, the base of most of the metrics I do now, I used to do when I was less than 10 years old, and so did most other kids I knew who played baseball where I grew up. We had to play games that actually required basic math skills. Most kids around me had some kind of baseball game that was played with spinning dials, dice, or something else, that allowed kids to simulate a ball game.

This was mine. http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/CadacoASB.htm We’d play seasons, meticulously keeping score and updating stats on everything from hitting, to fielding, to pitching, to base running. Although they usually supplied a graphic calculator to figure many of the things, most the kids I knew did what I did and just did the division or multiplication on the fly with a pencil and paper. [/quote]

This was a great game. Kept us busy all year. Never needed the TV or video games. My brother and I payed it from around 7 through JH, had leagues, kept stats and is a main reason I could do long division in my head when I was in third grade. We also kept stats for every Major League game.

I hear that!

[quote] I am in Kansas. School is about 1600 students, 400 per grade, our area is a total of 200,00 people It’s normal for freshman to make the “C” team but not the JV or V team. My brother went out for the team last year and made the freshman team. He’s a good defensive player and was a little weak with the bat…that was last year and he has improved a bunch over this fall since my dad started workin with him. I pitch to my brother a couple times a month and I work him quite a bit. I think it would be cool if my brother plays JV as a Junior next year (I know he wants V) and I could make JV as a freshman. He says that no one he faced while he was on the freshman team threw harder than I do now or have the junk I do too.

FYI, our school has Freshman, C team, JV and V teams, other schools only have the C team and no freshman so the freshman team played a lot of C teams.[/quote]

I’m not at all familiar with the “C” team concept. What is it? I looked at the Kansas site but the only thing I saw out of the norm as far as teams go, is that in Vollyball there’s a Sophomore team. Is that what you’re talking about?

Here in Ca we have Fr which is only available to HS 9th graders, V which of course is open to anyone, and JV which is only open to 9th thru 11th graders.

There ya go! Even to day I remember 7 and 13 are singles, 11’ a double, 5 a triple, 8 a fly ball, 9 a walk, … Oh how I miss those days. Still have mine hidden away someplace. Tried to get my boy interested, but he had already been ruined by Fraggle Rock, and games that lit up and made lots of noise. :frowning:

Do you have trouble understanding some of the wild stats that the modern game has developed? Sometimes I can’t quite comprehend why the stat was developed, but its seldom that I get snowed by simple arithmetic.

C team is what they call the team that has some Sophmores and better Freshman, so maybe it should be called the Sophomore team. They seem to really cut a lot of Sophomores to keep more Freshman for that team, so:

Freshman team = 15 Freshman
C Team = 9 Freshman, 6 Sophomores
JV = 9 Sophomores, 8 Juniors, 1 Freshman
V = 1 Sophomore, 8 Juniors, 9 Seniors

My brother said that 65 freshman went out last year and only 25 made the team. Some kids got moved around during the year either up or down.

[quote=“buwhite”]C team is what they call the team that has some Sophmores and better Freshman, so maybe it should be called the Sophomore team. They seem to really cut a lot of Sophomores to keep more Freshman for that team, so:

Freshman team = 15 Freshman
C Team = 9 Freshman, 6 Sophomores
JV = 9 Sophomores, 8 Juniors, 1 Freshman
V = 1 Sophomore, 8 Juniors, 9 Seniors

My brother said that 65 freshman went out last year and only 25 made the team. Some kids got moved around during the year either up or down.[/quote]

Thanx for the explanation. What your “C” team is, is what our JV is. Jrs can’t play on any team other than the V here.

I’ve really never figured out why HS Jrs and Srs are only eligible to play on the V, but that’s the way its always been as far as I know. Its always seemed a shame to me that if the V was fairly strong, a lot of Jrs would have to be whacked, with no place to play for at least 4 months.

I know our coach has carried as many as 25 on V because he didn’t want a lot of Jrs to be left in limbo. In ’08 he kept 11 pitchers on the roster. Between 6 of them they only got 24 and 2/3rds innings of work. But, one of the Jrs who we all were flabbergasted to see make the team, and who only got 1 inning that season, ended up with a full ride to a D1 school last year, and is transferring to a major D1 next year. Had he been cut, its unlikely he’d have made the team as a Sr because no one would have seen how he’d worked in practices, and he had no other record to speak of.

65 trying out for the Fr team is great! This fall we had 50 some come out for our Fr team, but chances are the number will be much less than that in the spring. Our school district has done away with Fr sports, so the incoming Fr will need to beat out all the players from the year before, plus all the incoming players. I can’t see them keeping more than 20 or so on the JV team, and the V is already crowded, so tryouts will likely be “bloody”.

Talking to my kid, he is so ready to try out for the baseball team that he would do it this year if he could, he feels he could make the team this year, don’t know if that’s just confidence or him being unrealistic, he strikes his older brother out regularly in bullpen sessions but you never know.