Wagner mechanics

Why have I heard that Billy Wagner’s mechanics are one of the worst in pro ball?

Not really, it’s one of the best in terms of efficiency. Don’t bring me out those ‘inverted W is dangerous’ here please.

Fast tempos, the arm action, aggressive finish… what not to like?

clearly if he throws 100 mph he’s got some pretty darn efficient mechanics…only thing that worries some is his arm action which is probably the cause of his elbow problems

Maybe the fact that he throws 100 mph is a big contributor to his elbow problems.

Nolan Ryan?

Ryan=Freak or nature

This witch hunt versus Wagner-type arm action is sickening. When you are desperate for efficiency, you do anything. An arm that throws 90mph+ with control is bound to get and injury

Ryan had several surgeries to remove bone chips…they were just off season.
Billy W has gotten all his body will give. His mechanics are…his, someone without his body attempting them may find himself in the waiting room at Dr. Andrews office there in Alabama. To become one of the premier closers in the Bigs and have your mechanics thought of as anything but top flight is nuts. We have to get off of this forever wheel of "Better, Better, Best mechanics…Don’t copy, become as strong and as efficient in the mechanics that your body allows you to deliver. Then, IF you have the DESIRE, The SKILL, The BLIND DUMB LUCK…you may make it to the upper reaches…only one Billy, only one Trevor, just one Greg, Rocket, Tim…write them a letter…see if they COPIED ANYONE. They all took what they had and went as far as the DESIRE to PITCH would take them…they are ALL FREAKS, if you define freak as one of an insane small percentage of people in the world gifted enough to get to where they are.
I’ll stop ranting now…I’ve got sweat on my upper lip… :roll: :oops:

jd,

You are an island of sanity in threads like this one, I mean that sincerely.


To address the OP’s question with some additional questions:

–Who told you that Billy Wagner’s mechanics are the worst in MLB?

–Did you take that opinion seriously? Why? What made you think that someone opining about Billy Wagner’s “terrible” mechanics on the internet had any kind of clue about it?

–What will you do with the new collection of opinions that are generated from your question?

You left out Brandon. :mrgreen:

:flush:

I can always depend on you, so I knew he’d get a mention :wink:

Touche!

Just being Cato to your Green Hornet there old friend.

Don’t know why Chris O’Leary continues to purport that the inverted W arm action itself is injurious, especially when he does not even know what it is. Especially when he cannot prove it.

He’s riding the pony that took him to the dance…You know he’s making 3 tiers of payment worth of “assessments” on his site now don’t you?
Chris is all about marketing, God Bless him he is a capitalist…but it does get tedious having to de-bunk Priors injuries…
As you know he’ll be the first to tell you that he has some scouts paying attention to him. It’s ironic but what can you do…

Nolan Ryan threw 332 innings in a year in addition to 26 cgs. Yes, 26 complete games.

Billy Wagner has thrown over 80 innings once in his career, and as far as I know has pitched no more than 2 innings in a game.

Hell yes, Billy Wagner’s mechanics are efficient but they are not durable. I don’t know how much time he’s missed but I do know that he has had elbow surgery. I can’t get myself to say that his mechanics are good or bad, but people arguing that Ryan had bone chips or that he was a freak is an excuse for the argument that his mechanics made him durable.

If your gonna model your mechanics after either of these men definately go for Nolan Ryan’s.

What do you mean by that?

Who can argue that Ryan was Ryan? He did have injury and was treated over time, he also had back and hammy issues…so what, he’s the Express.
My point was that “copying” mechanics isn’t what major league pitchers do, they use what they are blessed with to their best advantage. I stand by that. We have this mini cult of those who want to "emulate’, I contend that this is not conducive to a pitcher reaching peak potential, my arguement includes the fact that in all of my years I’ve never heard a pitching coach (Who is receiving a paycheck from an organization or university) tell a kid to “throw like X”. What I’ve heard and personally witnessed is they take a pitcher, look at his motion and A) Get rid of the injurious and B) Make the delivery the most efficient given arm slot, body type, body weight and other factors. I’ve seen success from this, I’ve never seen success based on copying someone else…you may have…I personally haven’t…I would contend that if it were that simple we’d have every pitcher throwing like Ryan or Maddux or Clemons…but they don’t now do they? It’s a cliche but really true, “cookie cutters are for cookies…not people”.
Billy Wagner is one of the very top closers in the game, has he been hurt? Yes, has he thrown for a considerably higher period for an average MLB career, for any position? Yes. Does he throw that sucker up there with unreal gas? Yes. Does that make him susceptable for injury? Yes. Is Nolan Ryan one of the greatest ever? Yes. I don’t consider either mutually exclusive. Fergie Jenkins threw more than likey twice the CG’s in a different way…Was he one of the greatest ever? Yes. All 3 have and had different mechanics.

[quote=“Orangepeel”]

What do you mean by that?[/quote]

All O’Leary does is show you pictures of pitchers with both elbows above their shoulder levels. Any monkey should be able to do that. Ask him to explain to you the kinesiological/anatomical term for what his occurring in the shoulder area. He claims it is hyper-abduction. How does he know this? How can someone state as an absolute fact (or close to it) that it is what he says it is. He must have been born with X-Ray or MRI vision in his eyes. How does he know it isn’t scapular elevation?

Who can argue that Ryan was Ryan? He did have injury and was treated over time, he also had back and hammy issues…so what, he’s the Express.
My point was that “copying” mechanics isn’t what major league pitchers do, they use what they are blessed with to their best advantage. I stand by that. We have this mini cult of those who want to "emulate’, I contend that this is not conducive to a pitcher reaching peak potential, my arguement includes the fact that in all of my years I’ve never heard a pitching coach (Who is receiving a paycheck from an organization or university) tell a kid to “throw like X”. What I’ve heard and personally witnessed is they take a pitcher, look at his motion and A) Get rid of the injurious and B) Make the delivery the most efficient given arm slot, body type, body weight and other factors. I’ve seen success from this, I’ve never seen success based on copying someone else…you may have…I personally haven’t…I would contend that if it were that simple we’d have every pitcher throwing like Ryan or Maddux or Clemons…but they don’t now do they? It’s a cliche but really true, “cookie cutters are for cookies…not people”.
Billy Wagner is one of the very top closers in the game, has he been hurt? Yes, has he thrown for a considerably higher period for an average MLB career, for any position? Yes. Does he throw that sucker up there with unreal gas? Yes. Does that make him susceptable for injury? Yes. Is Nolan Ryan one of the greatest ever? Yes. I don’t consider either mutually exclusive. Fergie Jenkins threw more than likey twice the CG’s in a different way…Was he one of the greatest ever? Yes. All 3 have and had different mechanics.[/quote]

Papibon:

While I agree with you in principle you can’t ignore that fact that most good MLB pitchers have similar core (by core I mean common) mechanical movements and while some may be natural others are learned either via instruction/practice or through observation.

I think the faux pas with many folks is that they confuse style with mechanics. For example, Dontrelle has a herky jerky type motion (style) but his core mechanics are similar to other MLB pitchers…he steps towards his target rotates etc. Maybe I am saying the same thing…adopt the core characteristics of successful MLB pitchers and adapt according to your own style and body type etc.

These are the efficiencies that I see trained, yes.
Unfortunately the proponents of emulation leave the impression that to look like x,y or z is the desired quality…which is wrong. Develop and deliver the full potential of the pitch is. I would contend that to access that particular effect each of us does it in a slightly different, to radically different way.

I don’t know if I’ve ever mentioned it to you, but I’ve heard Jon Pap give a bit of a speech once not very many years back. What a guy…when you look in his eyes you see the exact same quality you see in the eyes of SEALS or Special Forces types. He is a particularly impressive person…When he’s done with MLB he won’t just fade away…I don’t know what he’ll be doing but I’d bet he’ll be leading.