Two-seam and how to add movement


#1

I’m a 12 year old RHP. I throw 55-60 with a four seam fastball. Have a great secondary pitch in a slider that has totally elevated my game. Good enough changeup that I recently learned. Throw the heater with great control. Throw the other two with enough control to keep it down in the the zone. I have tried two seam fastballs but they do nothing. I throw above velo for my age but the two seamer is like average velo and for some reason it doesn’t move. Somewhere in between my heater and slider with control. How do I add glove side and sinking movement???


#2

Whats your arm slot? 3/4 or lower gets more sink and tail. Put more emphasis on middle finger and backspin at release.


#3

Yes, needs to come off your middle finger last with just a little pronation to get sink. But just concentrate on the middle finger.


#4

Not sure a slider is a good pitch for someone your age. I know its a blast to watch guys swing and miss a ball running away from them, but that pitch can cause all sorts of havoc with your arm even if it’s thrown correctly.

As to your question let me ask this question: How does your change up move? Arm-side run or sinks?


#5

Try gripping it with your two fingers touching each other. Also i dont reccomend throwing the slider at your age, it puts too much stress on the elbow. Anyways good luck here’s a picture of the grip I use: https://goo.gl/images/UJgMRm


#6

I thought you were asking how to add movement to your two seam. Which should be arm side movement and sink (heavy) not glove side movement.


#7

Thx I didn’t know a slider was harmful. It didn’t hurt my arm so I figured it was fine. My changeup mostly sinks but has minimal arm side movement, but on some occasions I have had it run into a rightie’s back foot and they swung and missed


#8

I throw 3/4


#9

Throwing a couple of sliders or curve balls a game probably won’t hurt you if you are throwing them correctly and they consist of only a small percentage of your total pitches. For instance, let’s say you throw 3 innings with a total pitch count of 45. Your pitch mix should be something like 75% fastball - 20% change up and 5% breaking ball. That would equate to 34 -FB, 9 CU, 2 BB. As you grow and the growth plates in your elbow close up you can adjust that mix accordingly.

As to your original question - you cannot get a lot of glove side movement without supination of the arm. This is what happens when throwing breaking balls like the slider and curve ball. A pitch you can experiment with to get some slight glove side movement is the cut fastball or cutter. This pitch should be thrown just like your four-seam FB, just grip the ball a little off-center. Check out this guys explanation on how to throw it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08HJUiUvbZ0 He does a good job of explaining how, when and why to throw it. Like any new pitch it will take some time and experimentation to get it where you want.


#10

Lorenzo47,

“I’m a 12 year old RHP.”

This is your chronological age. If your Biological age were known we could use it to determine when to increase stress on your arm Elbow and shoulder. This gives your bones a chance to not deform, as all of them do before the growth centers at the Elbow have solidified. This happens at 16 years old (chronologically) in Equated maturers that has their biological age match their chronological age.

What if you are delayed by as much as 2.5 years?

“ I throw 55-60 with a four seam fastball.”

Velo should have no place in a discussion about youth pitching! It should be all about skills, then.

We throw all 3 of our fastballs 4 seams release because it produces more movement.

We throw a tailing to the ball arm side fastball by Ulnar flexing the wrist and powerfully pronating the forearm to the inside during drive.

We throw a tailing to the glove arm side fastball by Radial flexing the wrist and powerfully pronating the forearm to the outside during drive.

We throw a lifting fastball (only up in the zone) by attaining equal lateral horizontal “axis presentation” on the ball by powerfully pronating a nominally positioned wrist.

The concept of having to throw a “2 seam fastball” to get movement delays pitchers from understanding why a ball moves the way it does in atmosphere. When they learn why it opens up all the doors to every pitch type.

All pitch types can be thrown forearm supinated (intuitive) or voluntarily forearm pronated.

It is known that a forearm supinated pitch types attack the structures of the Elbow pathomechanically with every attempt.

“Have a great secondary pitch in a slider that has totally elevated my game.”

While at the same time devolved your Elbow, guaranteed If you throw traditionally oriented teachings as the Supinated fastballs (cutter, 4 seam, 2 -seam) Sliders, slurves and Curves.

All these pitch types can be taught and learned the forearm pronated versions for a healthy outcome and great skills learning.

“Good enough change up that I recently learned.”

Change ups should be thrown with maximal effort with grinding spin power. Most modern change ups mushy and rolled off of less talented fingers.

“Throw the heater with great control.”

Back spun 4 seam fastballs are the easiest to control, they are the most practiced even off the bump.

“ Throw the other two with enough control to keep it down in the the zone.”

We throw fastball up and off speed down, not set in stone but predominantly, the K’s do pile up.

“I have tried two seam fastballs but they do nothing.”

Try releasing the ball 4 seams by turn your wrist slightly towards the outside and pop your elbow up instead of down, Enjoy the rest of your discoveries now!

The first thing I do with a client is to teach them ball “Axis presentation” and how pressure move the ball away from that pressure. This is why a back spun fastball produces lift and why batters think the ball is rising (it’s not).

The first pitch they learn is the powerful and voluntary forearm pronated fastball Sinker that is slowly taking over at the MLB level. It is a very healthy Elbow pitch and is never seen at lower levels and should.

“ I throw above velo for my age but the two seamer is like average velo”

Some times your body will react with concentration to other needs (you creating movement) and leave you with a lesser effort than a known result. don’t worry about those things. You need to eliminate Velocity from your thinking while learning skills.

“for some reason it doesn’t move.”

It’s all about atmospheric pressure and how this pressure makes the ball move laterally/up or down.

When you see a ball spin there is 2 speed directions that air molecules are colliding with the ball. The side of the ball that is spinning towards the direction of the ball path are colliding faster than the other side causing higher pressure on the ball. This pressure has the ball move away.

When you move either of the balls “circle of friction” (end of the balls axis) forwards it causes variation in pressure depending on how far forwards and or up or down it’s at. This is how you get a Slider or it’s opposite Sinker by moving the Axis forwards.

When the Axis is all the way forwards (equalized pressure) and spinning in either direction the ball will only go down. This is a Gyro ball.

“ Somewhere in between my heater and slider with control.”

What is your heater now? is it back spun? A supinated Cutter or supinated straight?

How do I add glove side and sinking movement???”

If you are talking your bodies glove side (not the catchers), your Slider is already sinking if you want lesser of that than make the “circle of friction “ placement back towards you more.

You need to learn the sinking movement to the ball arm side (pitchers body) of the plate!!! Then the lesser movement (traditional 2-seam) will happen.

Learn Ulnar flexion and Radial flexion but most importantly learn all forearm pronated pitch types before it’s to late!


#11

Huh? Sounds like a double-negative. Isn’t pronating to the outside the same as supinating?


#12

Roger,

“ Isn’t pronating to the outside the same as supinating?”

No. Any time the forearm pronates by having the thumb drive down and inwards, it is still pronation.

This is a very important distinction every pitcher should learn! How to pronate from the outside of the ball by radial flexing the wrist that will create a powerful Fastball Cutter, Slider or Curve.

Very few pitchers even know this action can be produced and why Elbows blow up on most.

Here is Halliday pronating his Cutter using this technique. If he had thrown this pitch over the top, it would change his primary Humeral mover (earlier) to lat driven instead of pec driven, eliminating even more pathomechanical situations. Watch his Humerus and forearm travel inwards complementing the same direction. If he had forearm supinated the Cutter like most teach and perform, the upper arm and lower arm would be seperating during drive in opposite directions causing hyper ballistic end of range of motion at the mid point, the Elbow.

This is why any supinated pitch degrades the Elbow! And why I always try to correct people who do not inderstand they can still throw a Slider safely if taught how to pronate it.

Steve Carlton was the best at pronating his Slider that he threw 50% of his count. He played over 20 years with no injurious effect. Roger Clemons changed his Slider from a Supinated one to a pronated one after leaving Boston because his Elbow was at the end of it’s rope. He Luckily worked with a Dr. Marshall trained pitching coach who gave him the correct info.


#13

Ok, I just didn’t know what you meant by “pronating to the outside”. “Pronating to the outside of the ball” makes sense. In fact, as soon as I saw the picture you posted I immediately knew what you meant without reading your explanation.

I am familiar with Carlton’s technique.