Triceps and pitching

Pitching Mechanics
#41

I’m gonna’ take a guess and say “yes”. It seems to me that the stronger the connective tissues are, the more energy they can transfer. And I would guess that strength training would have the effect of strengthening connective tissue as well. Otherwise, we’d see muscle-bound dudes blowing out tendons and ligaments just wiping their butts.

But this goes outside of my expertise so I couldn’t tell you what types of exercises are best.[/quote]

Well in general, the way the body works is that anything you put stress on within the limits, will break down a little then repair and be stronger… Works for bones, muscle, ligaments, etc

#42

The SSC only applies to muscles, not to connective tissues (e.g. tendons and ligaments).

There’s some controversy about whether, and how much, you can strengthen connective tissues.

#43

Chris the SSC has very much to do with the tendons and ligaments. I think you might want to check your resources. ( Not trying to be mean or cause arguement)

#44

[quote=“Roger”]Otherwise, we’d see muscle-bound dudes blowing out tendons and ligaments just wiping their butts.

[/quote]

:lol: :lol:

#45

[quote=“ChadM”]Chris the SSC has very much to do with the tendons and ligaments.[/quote]Can you point me to a resource that discusses that? What I’ve read is that the connective tissue works on a purely “elastic” response, as opposed to a neurological one, as in the SSC. They work together, of course, but they are different mechanisms. Again, I’m not a kinesiologist, so I’d like to see some professional info on this.

#46

Hello all, I am new to this forum and I am a big fan of this site. The tricepts discussion made me join. I am the father of a 13 year old son (pitcher) who just made jv. last year his only pain (injury) was tricepts. We have allways followed the line of thinking if something hurts you must have something wrong mechanicaly. After video taping him we decided it was his follow through finishing more across his body than toward his glove side knee. After the fix no more trouble. So my rookie opinion is yes you should train the tricepts as it is a decelerator.

#47

Welcome to the forums, z. I have only a layman’s take on the triceps issue, but when I throw, I use my triceps, not as decelerator only, but as accelerator too. Now, I’m no kinesiologist, doctor of pitcherology, or Chris O’Learyologist…but my own personal and empirical evidence supports the triceps as an accelerator, even if a minor one.

The Hose

#48

Dm I’m no kinesiologist but it seems like common sense. Tendon attaches muslce to bone, bone connects bone through ligaments. If tendon attaches muscle to bone then if the muscle stretches then contracts rapidly obviously then the tendon has to stretch then contract. If you dont think they stretch then how do people rip tendon from bone. It has to stretch to do that.

I’m not very sure about ligaments since thats attaching bone to bone but it seems it would have to stretch as well because if you bend your knees you get a stretch in ligament so it would seem to make sense. Look at UCL injuries the reason they tear is because of micro trauma right, well its during the acceleration part of the motion that causes the most valgus force on the ligament, so its stretching right well if it stretches then it has to spring back into place it seems that it would play a role in acceleration.

So the SSC seems to me that it plays apart on all connective tissue. I may be wrong but in my head it makes sense that all of the connective tissue would play apart in it not just muscles. How can the body differentiate between tendon and ligament and the stretch thats put on both. The body just doesnt go ok where in a stretched postion only the muscle is going to stretch not the tendon or ligaments. Like Chris has posted in topics he doesnt believe in stretching because it causes laxity in the connective tissue mainly ligaments. So if its going into a stretched position then obviously it has to play some part.

I hope I have made some sense because I have been rambling. I would also like to see a kinesiologists point of view on this as well.

#49

[quote=“ChadM”]Look at UCL injuries the reason they tear is because of micro trauma right, well its during the acceleration part of the motion that causes the most valgus force on the ligament, so its stretching right well if it stretches then it has to spring back into place it seems that it would play a role in acceleration.

[/quote]

I’m no expert on this, but according to a sports doc that I took my son to for what turned out to be a shoulder impingement, injuries like the above are deceleration injuries, and the way to rehab them is to strengthen the muscles that decelerate the arm, i.e., the back muscles and posterior shoulder muscles. I don’t kow if this relates to the topic, but I’m in a talkative mood I guess.

The Hose

#50

[quote=“ChadM”]Dm I’m no kinesiologist but it seems like common sense.[/quote]Chad. I like to think I do have a bit of “common sense”. Of course, connective tissue plays a role. Did you read my post about both items being involved but with a different “mechanism” at work in each? The SSC in muscle is driven by a neurological process that causes a contraction of the muscle. The elastic rebound of connective tissues is not. It might sound like splitting hairs here but the discussion came down to how to enhance this process. If we’re going to answer that question, we need to know what’s going on. A pitcher doesn’t necessarily need to know all of this but trainers and coaches could possibly benefit from it, although there are those who think this is far too much detail also.

So, some questions remain, in my mind at least, on this.

#1. Can the stretch shortening cycle (SSC) in muscle be enhanced through training? I believe Roger is correct that any muscle improvement will serve to enhance this process.

#1 a) Does plyometric training do the trick to make the SSC better or is it only “…what it is…”, as Chris states.
#1 b) Can simple concentric contraction training of muscle enhance this. Probably yes.
#1 c) Will training on the eccentric contraction process help? Probably yes.

#2. Can the elastic rebound of connective tissues (tendons and ligaments) be enhanced through training?

Oh, and “opinions” out of “common sense” (which I apparently don’t have) don’t count. I have plenty of those. :smiley: I’m looking for hard evidence from credible sources.

#51

Dm I never said you didnt have common sense. I never said hey dm you have no common senes. I think you might have pulled that out of context. I dont have hard evidence to give you. Where are your sources coming from that makes you think there wrong. To me you have figured it out you just want some sort of justification.

#52

Sorry, but this is wrong.

They tear because they don’t stretch.

The UCL breaks because it can’t stretch and absorb the load.

Also, the reason stretching can be bad is that it permanently loosens up joints that need to be relatively tight for stability purposes.

This doesn’t make any sense.

These are different structures with different physical properties, some of which stretch and some of which don’t.

It’s like the difference between a bungee cord and a steel chain. One stretches and one doesn’t.

#53

UCL injuries are acceleration injuries, not deceleration injuries.

#54

[quote=“ChadM”]To me you have figured it out you just want some sort of justification.[/quote]As I stated, what I have is “opinion”, based on a bunch of reading. Google “stretch shortening cycle” and you’ll find all sorts of articles, web sites, etc. These are what I’ve drawn upon to lead me to what I posted. If there are other sources out there that take a different view, then I’d like to see them. What happens a lot on internet forums is that people make statements as absolute fact but various scientific studies so very often conflict with “common sense”. I included info from the Jobe studies about the role of the triceps. That was based on EMG studies. We may be able to draw some conclusions from that. Very credible source. Are there similar studies about the SSC that can corroborate any of what’s been said in this thread?

#55

Somewhere along the way we lost the original question that started this whole discussion. "Will strengthening the triceps increase ball velocity?"
I would like to revisit that question, and say NO!

As proof of my answer I submit an article by Rod Whiteley from the Journal of Sports Sciences and Medicine (2007)6, 1-20, “Baseball throwing mechanics as they relate to pathology and performance - A Review.” Whiteley stated, " In an invesigation of the role of the triceps musculature during throwing, …On the sixth throwing trial after the nerve block (rendering the triceps brachii and wrist and finger extensors inactive) was performed, the subject was able to throw in excess of 80% of his original velociy despite the absence of active triceps contribution."
The work suggests that part of the role of the triceps was to maintain elbow flexion.

#56

[quote=“nick nickason”]
I would like to revisit that question, and say NO!

…the subject was able to throw in excess of 80% of his original velocity despite the absence of active triceps contribution."
The work suggests that part of the role of the triceps was to maintain elbow flexion.[/quote]

Sorry, but “in excess of 80%” by definition means that between 10% and 20% of the velocity produced prior to the trial was generated by the triceps!

That is the difference of up to 20 mph for the big guns! I would call that significant. In my son’s case, if he’s throwing 80 mph, approximately 64 mph is generated without triceps involvement…meaning that 16 mph is left on the table. Isn’t that significant to you? Or maybe I’m doing the math wrong.

BTW, great post regardless of your personal interpretation :wink:
That’s a great quote and I would like to see the original report if you have a link.

Hose

#57

[quote=“hoseman18”]…“in excess of 80%” by definition means that between 10% and 20% of the velocity produced prior to the trial was generated by the triceps![/quote]I thought the same thing Hose.

[quote=“hoseman18”]BTW, great post regardless of your personal interpretation. That’s a great quote and I would like to see the original report if you have a link.[/quote]I agree with this also.

This is what I was asking for. Something credible, as opposed to the myriad of opinions that abound on the internet.

#58

if i’m reading this properly, when talking about tendon and ligament, one will stretch and the other will not. which one does and doesn’t.

there is a plyometric exercise for the shoulder holding a mini-tramp against a wall and throwing/catching/and throwing again and again, using a 2 to 3 lb. pilates ball. got this one from ron wolforth and the athletic pitcher program. he has an agressive program he uses in houston that gets results. he’s had a number of pitchers break the 90 mph barrier.

part of the argument here is whether you can increase the range of motion in the shoulder or a joint without damaging the connective tissue. can the muscle be trained to gain additional stretch without stretching the connective tissue past it’s limits (it will stretch to a point before it breaks, but it will not return to it’s original state. that is the problem with connective tissue, and it has poor blood supply and is slow to heal.

#59

Hoseman: You are attributing the entire 20% to the triceps. The wrist and finger extensors were also inactivated. Which, I am sure you will agree, are important in throwing. Although they don’t give percentages of contrbutions to these muscles, and considering all the muscles involved in throwing,I would bet the triceps are no where near 20%.

The real point of my original post was that if one is going to exercise muscles for throwing, it would be better to exercise the latissamus dorsi and the pectoralis major because they are more active than the triceps for throwing.

For those who are interested in the article I referenced go to: www.jssm.org. Under search type in baseball pitching, and the article
should pop up. The volume # is 6. It is an outstanding review article!!

#60

The triceps don’t flex the elbow - they extend it.