Triceps and pitching

Pitching Mechanics
#21

[quote=“laflippin”]I think you are splitting hairs here in your role as a moderator.[/quote]Excuse me? What has my role as moderator got to do with this discussion?

[quote=“laflippin”]However, it would be a mistake, in my view, to attempt a reconciliation between the clearly stated (but nonsense) view, “The triceps have no role in most throwing motions…” with the conclusions of legitimate sports medicine literature that clearly states the opposite: “The triceps have an important role in throwing motions”.[/quote]Whatever you think of Chris’ comments, I made my own. I’m attempting no “reconciliation”, only stating opinions and posing questions based on certain research.

I questioned House’s statement and the rationale behind it. Do you have an explanation in response to my question?

#22

DM,

Here’s your question, and your answer. I doubt that you really want another answer to your question from me.

“Doesn’t this kind of say that you will never get injured from excessive deceleration forces? You physically can’t, according to this theory.”

andrewlandolfi,

I hope you were able to make some sense out of the many interesting answers to your straightforward original question.

#23

I guess I’m missing something here because I see no response to any of my questions.

#24

DM,

This was your question:

"Doesn’t this kind of say that you will never get injured from excessive deceleration forces?

And this was your answer:

You physically can’t, according to this theory."

You don’t want any further response to this question from me, you answered your own question.

What’s more I really think andrewlandolfi’s original question has also been fully answered by several people. No matter that the answers are 180 degrees apart, and that I personally think one of them is total gibberish. Hopefully, andrewlandolfi can read the thread and now make up his own mind. If he can’t do that, I don’t think more of this is going to help any. Just my personal opinion.

#25

[quote=“laflippin”]You don’t want any further response to this question from me, you answered your own question.[/quote]This is simply my personal “interpretation”. So, I guess you agree then that the statement House made is problematic in its logic. Correct? If not, please let me know what I’m missing.

#26

[quote=“laflippin”]DM,

I think you are splitting hairs here in your role as a moderator.[/quote]

DM,

Your mistake/crossing the line evidently was agreeing with me.

It’s very important to laflippin that I’m always wrong.

#27

[quote=“laflippin”]A thrower cannot accelerate a baseball to a higher velocity than his body’s ability to decelerate after release of the ball.[/quote]OK. I’ll throw out what I think is reasonable. Maybe this is just a matter of unfortunate word choices. I would agree that one “shouldn’t” do that, as opposed to “can’t”. Is that what you meant, and what he means?

[quote=“laflippin”]DM

I think you are splitting hairs here in your role as a moderator. [/quote]What did you mean by this?

#28

DM,

  1. I really do think that andrewlandolfi’s question concerning the role of triceps in pitching has been answered. In fact, it has been answered several times, and the answers do not agree. That’s okay, there is probably enough information for a reasonable person to make up his mind at this point.

  2. re: “A thrower cannot accelerate a baseball to a higher velocity than his body’s ability to decelerate after release of the ball.”

I believe that “cannot” is the mot juste here, with the qualification that I usually use in this context: “A thrower cannot accelerate a baseball to a higher velocity than his body’s ability to decelerate after release of the ball…[without injuring tissue]”. “Shouldn’t” is also appropriate, presuming you do not wish to injure tissue by accelerating your arm more than your capability for properly decelerating it.

It is very straightforward logic, almost so simple that it can be hard to grasp the importance of what’s being said.

  1. Chris is incorrect–it’s not important to me to show that he is always wrong, even though he very often is wrong, in my opinion. When I believe he is right about something, I have said as much when I thought it important to do so.

  2. What I really think–and please note: this is strictly personal opinion and it is off-topic, although I don’t think I started it this time–is that Chris O’Leary is a chameleon and an internet phony–a marketer and self-promoter with almost no baseball background beyond Little League coaching and an overactive imagination. Someone who would say almost anything in his desperate quest to be recognized as an authority on pitching. It surprises me, I confess, that he is often taken seriously here at LTP, a site that I imagine would be populated with folks that should know better more often than not.

  3. In this thread I thought you were splitting hairs in your role as a moderator in an attempt to conciliate two completely opposing views on the role of triceps in the throwing motion of pitchers with what is sometimes called “tortured logic”. The statement was not meant to be pejorative but it was my honest opinion. If you believe that my opinion is wrong, that’s okay with me.

  4. Getting back on-topic for just a moment…(a) The overwhelming evidence from the sports medicine literature supports an important role for the triceps in pitching. (b) The studies already cited, and there are more if you like, strongly support the idea of conditioning and strength training of the triceps, commensurate with the cond. and str. training of the accelerator muscle groups. © On a site dedicated to higher level analysis and teaching of concepts important to pitchers, it would be a real disappointment if points 6(a) and 6(b) were obfuscated because of individuals’ personal issues.

#29

you guys are leaving clumps in the sandbox again.

#30

“It surprises me, I confess, that he is often taken seriously here at LTP, a site that I imagine would be populated with folks that should know better more often than not.”

I wouldn’t confuse civility and allowing a person to speak without bombarding him with rancour and personal attacks as anything more than good taste La.
Chris has been challenged by me to the point in which he’s complained to Steven. I’ve started whole threads in which I, without personal attack, meet Chris’ absolute statements with logic and common sense. I do get concerned when I see any member, “blindly” follow the musing of any one on this site. Many of the kids that like Chris, get to hear both sides of the coin…laid out by none other than you, or Roger or DM, I’ve seen Steven jump in and disagree with Chris…and Nyman :shock: Wow they’ve had titanic running feuds…but still the ones that like him like him…he’s not a bad spirit…kids pick up on that and he tries to help.
I agree and will debate with Chris when my beliefs run up against his absolute stuff…just like I have a different take on Travel Ball than Dusty and Roger…it’s supposed to be the beauty (And IMO is ) of this site…the reader gets many perspectives. I see some with a bs meter some who don’t care…

#31

[quote=“laflippin”]
5) In this thread I thought you were splitting hairs in your role as a moderator in an attempt to conciliate two completely opposing views on the role of triceps in the throwing motion of pitchers with what is sometimes called “tortured logic”. The statement was not meant to be pejorative but it was my honest opinion. If you believe that my opinion is wrong, that’s okay with me.[/quote]Actually, I had no intent on “conciliating” at all. Chris and I have had our debates over the years, as everyone here is probably tired of seeing. I happened to agree with a component of what he was saying, that being in the role of the rest of the body in the initiation of acceleration and contraction of the triceps. I was really only attempting to reconcile the Jobe findings with that. It really had nothing to do with Chris. Actually, la, I was quite pleased with my questions about whether or not you can enhance the SSC. So, I thought it odd that you came out seemingly against me. As some may have noticed, I put a lot of stock into the role of the SSC in the pitching motion. I have read much about things of this sort but would really like to hear from those much more knowledgeable than me on these things.

[quote=“laflippin”]On a site dedicated to higher level analysis and teaching of concepts important to pitchers, it would be a real disappointment if points 6(a) and 6(b) were obfuscated because of individuals’ personal issues.[/quote]Agreed. So, to stay on topic, what about my thoughts on the SSC, Jobe and how to enhance it all?

Any kinesiologists out there?

#32

AND

jd. Good post bro.

[quote=“dusty”]you guys are leaving clumps in the sandbox again.[/quote]Yeah, it happens. They typically get cleaned up, eventually.

#33

…whose opinions and analyses are valued at the highest levels of baseball.

That includes 2 scouts at the major league level, multiple former major leaguers, multiple current minor leaguers, and multiple coaches and players at the D-1 level.

That’s why I couldn’t care less what some baseball nobody thinks about me.

#34

:rofl2:

#35

Good mechanics and timing are the key. These let you maximize the transfer of energy up the kinetic chain which, of course, relies heavily on the SSC.

Not me.

#36

It amazes me how laflippin and Chris O’leary can argue for pages about BS :bsmeter: :hijack: :snowfight: It’s actually really annoying.

#37

[quote=“Roger”]Good mechanics and timing are the key. These let you maximize the transfer of energy up the kinetic chain which, of course, relies heavily on the SSC.[/quote]Sure. I’m with ya there but are there strength related exercises that can enhance the SSC response?

#38

No.

It is what it is.

All you can do is change your timing so the stretch (of the SSC) happens right before the muscles have to contract.

#39

So, what about plyometrics?

#40

I’m gonna’ take a guess and say “yes”. It seems to me that the stronger the connective tissues are, the more energy they can transfer. And I would guess that strength training would have the effect of strengthening connective tissue as well. Otherwise, we’d see muscle-bound dudes blowing out tendons and ligaments just wiping their butts.

But this goes outside of my expertise so I couldn’t tell you what types of exercises are best.