The problem with studies/science


#1

They’re manipulated based on Agenda. I can find studies that vaccines are good and bad. I could cherry-pick on how oranges are bad for you (even if the study is overwhelmingly orange).

Mr. Mills may get in my face and tell me nothing will help except getting on a mound and to video record the proceedings.

Mr. Nyman (as seen on “another pathetic attempt”) will tell you that you stole from setpro.com.

Mr. Porceau will tell you to power clean 1.5 times your body weight and how vertical jump correlates to pitching velocity

Mr. Jaeger will tell you to long toss your butt off

Nolan Ryan will tell you too lift your leg higher

These are just a few minute examples and each have studies/science to prove and disprove thiers and others systems (their systems are more complex and all have made great talking points for pitching awareness)

But little has been provided on feel. What does it feel like to throw 90, 95, or hell 100? What does it feel like to hit a 400ft homerun?

Mechanics make you have a conscious effort to preform a set pattern or end up in a specific position. A lot has been discussed on mechanics

-scapular loading
-toeing the rubber
-to push or be pulled off the rubber

  • counter rotating the torso
    -etc

I want to hear from someone who throws 90,95 and tell me how it feel. Not someone else tell me what a high velocity pitcher does


#2

I can tell you what a toothache feels like, but unless you’ve experienced a toothache, my words won’t mean diddly squat. It hurts … end of story.

Muscle movement and that trigger that tells you … “ahhhh that’s it, let it rip”, is very personal and sensitive to each pitcher. I’ve been a pitching coach for some time - working with adults, not youth, and I can tell you from experience, each individual - tall and slim, stocky and muscular, six feet six inches tall Vs. five feet eleven inches tall, will all have different benchmarks and the narration to go along with it. Now if you happen to have the build and physique of any of the heretofore mentioned, then I guess you’ll relate, if not, how about hearing what a toothache is like? Sorry about the toothache remark - but I’m trying to make a point.

If honesty serves any purpose in my posting here, I’ve coached pitchers that have no idea of what the heck makes them howitzer a ball down range at 90 +, much less why. I’ve had pitchers whose form and posture baffles even the best of coaches and analysis’s of the craft. Heck, as long as these guys can win games - who gives a #@!*.

Your question deserves respect though, and in that regard I will say this:
If you can find anyone, anyone at all, that can answer your question to the extent that you fully understand it, and it works for you and you produce the kind of results that you’re looking for, please by all means put in a book and sell it. You’ll make a bundle.


#3

I just have to tell you this one – I had a pitcher who was five feet eight inches tall and weight in around 205 pounds. He cruised in the mid to high eighties routinely. He could spot the ball like a surgeon and because of that, he was given a roster spot on our club. His format on the mound was all business and a delivery cycle that was an athlete’s poetry in motion.

One night he’s pacing the bullpen, talking to himself. I get up from my folding chair, walk along next to him and asked “you Ok there scooter?” He ignored me and keep walking and sputtering to himself.

He was called into the game as a reliever and literally rifled one bullet after another in the mid 90’s. Get a signal to toss a curve – nope, 94 right down the pike. He pounded the mitt for three innings, went hitless, and then he was taken out for our closer to finish.

Later on I found out the reason for his performance. It seemed that his girlfriend flushed his favorite glove down the toilet, plugged the john up but good and ended up flooding the apartment under his. It’s a good thing she took off and he ended up on the rotation that night – worked out pretty good for us anyway. Oh well, so much for proper mechanics…


#4

I agree to a certain extent. If you were to ask your players that have broken the 90mph threshold, how did it feel to throw that hard? They would try to break it down in mechanical terms. Which all in all is just a terrible way to describe anything.

If I were a nascar driver driving at 200mph I wouldnt describe each mechanical process the engine completed. Its just not applicable.

Just like if I asked , lets say Tim lincecum, how he throws so hard. If he broke that down into " O my hands go here, my leg there, turn like this" I can’t apply that at all. But if he did say “well what I do is I rear back, let my foot hit, spin the crap out of my torso, and let my arm fly.” It may not be the most detailed piece of info but it’s a way more applicable.

Now do this with all 90+ throwers, and I think we might find some common ground. Just like when you go on these guru sites and they say all high velocity throwers do this but instead let’s use feel instead of (high velocity throwers put there blah blah muscle at 40° this way and your foot in your mouth.


#5

Good points. I guess you’re restating your original question, but in different terms.

On the one hand, your insight into thinking through the ways-n-what-fore of success in the velocity department, reaching into the 90’s, is a good one. On the other hand, I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting many pitchers who have had enough command with the English language to meet your requirements. This is no refection on said pitchers - it’s more about me.

I’m not trying to be sarcastic here, just realistic from my experiences. But your right about one thing, if enough pitchers have a common thread about “feel” then your really on to something. Although I’m fully retired and closer to regular naps and warm milk, I’d really be interested in hearing about the subject and the answers you get.


#6

This is something Ive been trying to research for some time. Things like this arent discussed or eke athletes just aren’t willing to help (feels like some sort of conspiracy almost). But I have talked with a few pitchers and I (ofcourse) got their mechanical explanation

Marc Kroon 95+ (twitter) . I just try to stay focused and throw strikes (O, thanks)

Roy Oswalt 92+ (twitter) I try to keep my hips closed as long as possible (ah)

Trevor Bauer (facebook) I deadlift so I get a more powerful push off from the rubber

All this mechanics stuff is just to focused on.


#7

[quote=“hanshin_tiger22”]They’re manipulated based on Agenda. I can find studies that vaccines are good and bad.
[/quote]
I personallyy know a person that developed guillain-barré syndrome (paralized her lower body. Andy Griffith had GBS also) after being injected with the H1N1 vaccine. Improved with physical therapy, but still changed the families life. Im not saying Vaccines are bad , but there is a risk.


#8

[quote=“Coach Baker”]I just have to tell you this one – I had a pitcher who was five feet eight inches tall and weight in around 205 pounds. He cruised in the mid to high eighties routinely. He could spot the ball like a surgeon and because of that, he was given a roster spot on our club. His format on the mound was all business and a delivery cycle that was an athlete’s poetry in motion.

One night he’s pacing the bullpen, talking to himself. I get up from my folding chair, walk along next to him and asked “you Ok there scooter?” He ignored me and keep walking and sputtering to himself.

He was called into the game as a reliever and literally rifled one bullet after another in the mid 90’s. Get a signal to toss a curve – nope, 94 right down the pike. He pounded the mitt for three innings, went hitless, and then he was taken out for our closer to finish.

Later on I found out the reason for his performance. It seemed that his girlfriend flushed his favorite glove down the toilet, plugged the john up but good and ended up flooding the apartment under his. It’s a good thing she took off and he ended up on the rotation that night – worked out pretty good for us anyway. Oh well, so much for proper mechanics…[/quote]

Woman !!


#9

I don’t think folks don’t want to or are not willing to talk about it. Rather, I agree with Coach B that “feel” is just such an intangible thing that people don’t know how to explain it or communicate it.

Interesting topic.


#10

I discuss these things on my log, but in the end there is only so much you can impart in another player using cues and descriptions. Then it’s up to them to use trial and error to figure out the same things within their own body.

If we are going to look at “cues” we must recognize that different players will interpret the same cue in many different ways.

Ive learned more just studying video of high level throwers and trying things out on myself. And a lot of these things are very hard to describe, if you were to try to put them into words.

I could say you need an active drive from your rear leg/ involved back side/triple extension and those may all be three different ways people try to describe the exact same phenomenon. So if you hear a cue don’t just try to do what that cue projects in your mind, take a look at what that cue means in the deliveries of a number of high level throwers. See with your eyes how they do it. You can really “learn” this way through your own observation, and at least gain an understanding of what you’re going for.

Still doing and feeling it is another story entirely, but as the saying goes “if you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.”

Check out my website or log where I try to describe what a 102 mph throw feels like.


#11

I can have a gif file and prove that triplee extension is right and wrong.

I don’t know how to bring gifs from my phone but i have two of yu darvish.

One is slow motion and one can say they clearly see triple extension and a explosive leg drive

The other is real time and one could say that he uses gravity . He turns his back knee down (without straightening) and his explosive torso rotation pulls his drive leg away from the rubber

[/img]


#12

There are similarities within the pitching cycle itself that I use to look for, that are solid measurements of strength and longevity, tolerance and minimal health issues later on in a man’s career. In fact, selling a pitcher outright, acquiring his replacement is business as usually for everyone, and those descriptions that I just mentioned above, are all related to your question, in one way or the other.

Top end velocity for those that routinely cruise in the 90’s are all dependent on the training that includes strength and longevity, tolerances and health issues – diet & nutrition tailored to the baseball season’s experience and so forth. So, as part of your fact-finding, collect that information first and you should find a common thread(s) that most – if not all, of these burners have in common.

Performers have some commonalities that just about everyone overlooks. People inherently want to gravitate to the visual experience, without doing the homework of how that visual experience is/was supported and nurtured. Sure – I do this-n-that is basically what you’re looking for , but if I were you, I’d go further and get the totally story.

Here’s an example of what I’m driving at:
I had a pitcher who was stocky, only 5’11”, but portly in the mid section with absolutely no flex at the midsection, very little drive off the rubber, and literally upright on the release. Talk about totally contrary to the popular notions at the time of how and why pitchers should pitch. The man was good for five solid innings of work- but needed 8-11 days rest, mandatory. His only claim to fame, 96-98 mph no sweat, but only against certain clubs. 60% of the clubs we faced, he had them cold. The other 40% lit the guy up good. So, this pitcher was used smartly, specifically designed for a purpose.
His secret – swing that belly/girth around like a wrecking ball on a chain and use his enormous shoulder build to howitzer the ball as hard has he could. No grace, no form, nothing that I’d ever want to see a youngster doing, but for him it worked. His diet was overloaded with carbs, lots of fruit and he was a bottomless pit for pizza.

Any who, getting back to my suggestion earlier - most of the pitchers that I’ve been responsible for had specific diets in the offseason, preseason, prime season and post season. They also had specific conditioning routines and so on. When they went to work, most of the time, everything clicked and their numbers, velocity included, was evidence of the preparation. So, collect your information the best you can, throw out the extremes, then include what those pitcher’s did to attain those numbers. You’ll get a darn good idea of not only the numbers game, but how those numbers came about.
When I stopped to think clearly about your total question, it intrigued me. Also, I was serious about putting your findings in writing. Consider having someone read over your collection, put it in manuscript form, review it again, then ask for some professional guidelines to publication. You really might have something there. Best wishes on your project.

However, don’t be discouraged if no one, and I do mean no one, wants to give you that information. Pitchers in the professional game guard their development and how they do things. It’s kind a like professional trade secret thing. By the way – that’s why there are guys like me. I can pick apart a man and tell you days, even weeks in advance, if and when he’s going to go-or-no-go, and the “table” value of his shelf life. We’re not “friends” with many in the business, just for that reason. So, your project is worth looking for, from my perspective.


#13

Out of the thousands of gifs, some live sightings, and a few books by/about some of our past-time pitchers (ex 1970 or older, because they didn’t know what mechanics were) That there is a explosive and quick rotation of the torso that “howitzers” (I like that) the arm and zips the ball to home plate. How they get that quick and explosive rotation is what’s scrambling everyone’s mind. And causing us to come to conclusions whilst ruining tons of young arms.

I think Sandy koufax described the feeling best when he said that we are a human catapult. When I think about it, that’s the best thing i could think of in terms of Movement. Move your biggest part fastest and the small stuff comes a flyin


#14

I’d say more like Trebuchet than a catapult


#15

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Triple extension or is torso rotation pulling the drive leg away from the rubber?

These

http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/firearm2207/media/nolan_ryan6_zpsyfqhfo6x.gif.html][img]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s643/firearm2207/nolan_ryan6_zpsyfqhfo6x.gif[/img

Ok well, maybe some mixed feelings but how about these

http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/firearm2207/media/darvishmech_zpsf8gkjpth.gif.html][img]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s643/firearm2207/darvishmech_zpsf8gkjpth.gif[/img

http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/firearm2207/media/darvishmec2_zps4tzc1k28.gif.html][img]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s643/firearm2207/darvishmec2_zps4tzc1k28.gif[/img

How about some “right-handed” Sandy Koufax

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http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/firearm2207/media/koufaxrightfast_zpstmx5ltsf.gif.html][img]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s643/firearm2207/koufaxrightfast_zpstmx5ltsf.gif[/img

Mr. Rivera ?

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#16

Reading about the “trouble with studies and/or science” gave me a good chuckle and at the same time had me scratching my head in perplexity. And I thought about a poem by Walt Whitman called “When I Heard The Learned Astronomer” which I had read a long time ago. Whitman talked about how he sat in a dome with a blackboard and listened to an astronomer discourse on graphs and such to the point where he got fed up to the teeth, got up, left the premises and went out into the night—and, as he put it, “looked up in perfect silence at the stars”. The same holds true for the situation described here. It seems that the only thing to do is for the pitcher to get up there on the mound and start throwing, with a catcher behind the plate and a good pitching coach looking on, and then we’ll see what we have here. :baseballpitcher: