The Inverted Race For The Cy Young "W"

Here’s my latest post, hammer it, destroy it or just simply Enjoy!

Think,

That was not enjoyable so I will take the other suggestions.

You have committed an error! You need to understand what the real problem is!! You do not

You have shown someone like Kershaw in a still (legs and foot stike removed) where he displays the inverted action long before his front side leg touches down. You have done the same thing with Verlander, These stills are invalid to explain why being in the inverted “W” position at glove side foot plant cause “late forearm turnover” because you do not understand the walking response that occurs when the glove side foot finally plants. These 2 particular pitchers do not display the inverted arm action at glove side foot plant and are in a much better timing position to actually help eliminate UCL degradation later with it’s associated forearm bounce. High elbows and such are just layered on fog.

Get it right so you will finally understand what is actually happening and why this destructive late timing causes elbow degradation, so the people who listen to you will have a chance to change this mal-mechanic.

Much more important note: Kinesiology and applied anatomy are science’s and the leading Kinesiological expert in the world and many more have explained this mechanical flaw in detail for it’s manifested pathological outcomes, just use Smolts again to show his incredible hard bounce to see it and understand why he had 3 UCL surgeries.

Not hard at all, in fact Tommy John himself changed his arm action to be able to set the record that still stands for post surgical pitching service. I do it all the time with no problems other than effort .

You have argued wrong again!! Changing an injurious action to a healthy action allows the athlete to now be able to train “sport specifically” making him even more able to withstand the now increased stress that getting it right allows.

The kids and parents you are addressing here do not receive paychecks from affiliated teams, so quit trying to sell this poison with your dreamscape mentality, it is dangerous and disingenuous. Your ignorance on this issue can not be used any longer as an excuse because you have been told where to go to get the information on how to make a difference.

I would suggest you start now and quit being a follower and thinktank this.
When you finally get it and understand your Guru recommends injurious force application at the shoulder also you might write an article that helps youth pitchers pitch with health. Until then I will be here to help you through this since you are incapable of researching the truth at the right place.

Still waiting for that pronation hack job, what up?

Yard,

You totally missed the entire premise of the artice, you may want to re-read
As always, you have the answers but nothing to back it up.

Please share with all of us how you are able to shape and change movement patterns, particularly arm action as you say.

“I do it all the time with no effor”

Are you pitching competitively still?

I doubt that you will have any examples for fear of being blackballed.

Thanks

[quote=“yardbird”]Think,

Much more important note: Kinesiology and applied anatomy are science’s and the leading Kinesiological expert in the world and many more have explained this mechanical flaw in detail for it’s manifested pathological outcomes, just use Smolts again to show his incredible hard bounce to see it and understand why he had 3 UCL surgeries.

[/quote]

I do not wish to get involved in this, but I’m curious to who the kinesiological expert that you are referring to is?

Jimster,

It’s a secret.

I had an inkling that it might be a secret. :lol:

[quote=“yardbird”]Think,

“You have shown someone like Kershaw in a still (legs and foot stike removed) where he displays the inverted action long before his front side leg touches down.”

Did you watch the video?

“You have done the same thing with Verlander,”

Verlander wasn’t on there

" These stills are invalid to explain why being in the inverted “W” position at glove side foot plant cause “late forearm turnover” because you do not understand the walking response that occurs when the glove side foot finally plants. These 2 particular pitchers do not display the inverted arm action at glove side foot plant and are in a much better timing position to actually help eliminate UCL degradation later with it’s associated forearm bounce. High elbows and such are just layered on fog."

So you’re saying that the Inverted w is not an issue, thanks.

.

[quote]““Important Note: There is no scientific evidence to support that the Inverted W correlates to arm injuries.””

Please share

Please share how your advanced central nervous system can function at such a high level that the motor learning process doesn’t apply to you. Totally asinine comment.

Does the secret kinesiologist know of your abilities? You would be a great addition to Stan Lee’s Superhuman show.

Let me guess you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Do constraints not apply to you?

One last question: Would you mind sharing why you only use certain tenets of Marshalls and not the entire kit and kaboodle.
Why would you suggest changes to your students knowing that they will be changed in organized ball? Or do you simply allow it to happen and then blame the failures on organized ball?

baseballthinktank,

I am pretty sure everybody on this forum would appreciate it if you could have a rational discussion and stop with the ad hominems.

That being said, If you look at the pitchers who constantly have labrum, rotator cuff, and ucl injuries, when their front foot strikes their elbow is in a compromised position in relation to their shoulders.

Just off the top of my head I can name anthony reyes, joel zumaya, strasburg, adam wainwright, chris carpenter, josh johnson, I could go on forever.

As for pitchers who have stayed healthy, look at felix hernandez, justin verlander, cc sabathia, roy halladay, roger clemens, nolan ryan, trevor bauer, etc…

There is overwhelming against you, and just because a pitcher performs an inverted w or inverted l in their delivery, that does not mean they are injury prone. They have to have the timing flaw at front foot strike for their connection to be disrupted.

"Just off the top of my head I can name anthony reyes, joel zumaya, strasburg, adam wainwright, chris carpenter, josh johnson, I could go on

I believe you’re referring to the high elbow phenomena. IMO that’s most often an issue with the center mass and that was never used to describe the oroginal concept of the inverted w. Secondly, you’re taking a very small percentage of high velocity arms, calling it the inverted w, to make your point. In essence, you’re associating a very small percentage, calling it the inverted w and using it as “overwhelming” evidence?? What about the other 124? I’m not sure if you read the article bc we probably wouldn’t be discussing this point.

“There is overwhelming against you, and just because a pitcher performs an inverted w or inverted l in their delivery, that does not mean they are injury prone.”

Did you read the article? That’s the entire premise of the article!

Are we set up for another “discussion” between thinktank and yard? :roll:

I’m not saying that either one of you is the aggressor; I’m saying that it seems like little gets accomplished when any comments become personal. Instead of trying to reach a decisive conclusion, perhaps a presentation of your premises and the information which purports to back it up would be most helpful. That way, the readers can make the decisions themselves based on what they see.

[quote=“BenFA”]Are we set up for another “discussion” between thinktank and yard? :roll:

I’m not saying that either one of you is the aggressor; I’m saying that it seems like little gets accomplished when any comments become personal. Instead of trying to reach a decisive conclusion, perhaps a presentation of your premises and the information which purports to back it up would be most helpful. That way, the readers can make the decisions themselves based on what they see.[/quote]

Ben,
Totally agree and I want to apologize for my confrontational approach. Both Yard and I have conviction in our beliefs. You’re right that would be best but I don’t have the time. Again I apologize, you and Robert are right.

[quote=“Baseballthinktank.com”][quote=“BenFA”]Are we set up for another “discussion” between thinktank and yard? :roll:

I’m not saying that either one of you is the aggressor; I’m saying that it seems like little gets accomplished when any comments become personal. Instead of trying to reach a decisive conclusion, perhaps a presentation of your premises and the information which purports to back it up would be most helpful. That way, the readers can make the decisions themselves based on what they see.[/quote]

Ben,
Totally agree and I want to apologize for my confrontational approach. Both Yard and I have conviction in our beliefs. You’re right that would be best but I don’t have the time. Again I apologize, you and Robert are right.[/quote]

That’s completely fine and I think much of the relevant info was discussed in the other post. I appreciate the work you do and I have found it beneficial to myself. The open spreading of ideas is the cornerstone for advancement and every contributor has a place.

This made me chuckle. :lol:

Many years ago on the SETPRO forums I started using the phrase “you are only capable of seeing what you are capable of seeing…”.

“Seeing” is a result of the sum total of our life experience. Experience has many facets ranging from pure theory to demonstrated achievement. Unfortunately neither pure theory nor demonstrated achievement necessarily makes one an expert.

Expert: a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area.

What I find most troubling is that the so-called experts who attribute the inverted W as a prescription for injury have no real defense other than saying that it can create a timing problem i.e. the arm is going to be late.

Previously the so-called experts said it was the high elbow which allegedly the inverted W produced that caused injuries. Of course this was when the so-called experts believe that the inverted W was lifting the elbow above the shoulder which was totally a figment of their imaginations.

Going back to the definition of an expert i.e. a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of a skill in a particular area there’s one word that really jumps out at me that word is authoritative.

Authoritative: able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable.

Other than words and carefully selected pictures or videos how many of these so-called experts fit the definition of of authoritative?

Most of the so-called experts defend their “belief systems” in one of two ways:

  1. Either they bombard us with verbiage demonstrating that they are indeed experts that one thing i.e. producing verbiage.

  2. Find some pitchers who have suffered injury that in their opinion was caused by the inverted W (key words being “their opinion”).

Biomechanically the inverted W satisfies certain physics and physiological principles with respect to throwing the baseball with optimal efficiency.

  1. Develops and maintains momentum and momentum is with determines how hard you throw the baseball.

  2. Improve the ability to create external rotation and it’s been demonstrated that extra rotation is a key component in developing velocity.

  3. Develops external rotation momentum which is critical to creating elastic potential energy in the connective tissues.

  4. Is consistent with developing a whipping transfer of momentum.

  5. Create an arm action and release action on the baseball that promotes ball movement.

These are some of the key highlights as to why I believe the inverted W is an efficient and effective way to throw the baseball.

With respect to the argument of timing issues caused by the inverted W. There are two problems. First almost without exception those who attribute timing problems the inverted W really don’t understand what effective timing really is i.e. the development of throwing momentum and its conversion to velocity. In other words they really don’t understand how the body components develop and create this.

Second those who use this argument have no understanding of how the body learns acquires movement skills.

Any movement is a result of the coordinated activities of all muscles in the body. The sequence of throwing a baseball is a learned skill. How the different parts of the body are coordinated is a trial and error process. If a player exhibits late arm action it simply because that’s how he learned how to throw the baseball. It didn’t happen because of the inverted W it happened because that’s how he matched up the rest of his body to throwing the baseball.

It’s no different than any of the throwing mechanics problem it simply a matter of that’s how the player from a very early age learned how to use his body to throw the baseball. It simply a motor learning:

Motor learning: Motor learning is the process of improving the motor skills, the smoothness and accuracy of movements.

If you look at any athletic activity where a player/performer has a mechanical flaw it’s not because the flaw itself (inverted W?) It simply that’s how they learned to perform the movement patterns.

This is where a field of study called dynamic systems and its sibling and more popular field of study called chaotic systems come into play. It’s called the butterfly effect.

In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change at one place in a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state.

With respect to throwing a baseball it simply says that small differences in how the body correlates itself the initial drawing development process can lead to dramatically different mechanics.

Motor learning also says that once the body develops a motor skill it is very, very difficult to make changes especially if the skill is being performed at a very high level of competition.

That being said I can now say what I really feel.

Those who claim that the inverted W is the cause of injury because of late timing don’t know their A$$ from their elbow. What they’re calling the inverted W is not the inverted W it simply something that looks like the inverted W because the definition of inverted W is an arm action that optimizes performance.

And secondly what I really want to say is that Yardbird is the biggest waste Internet bandwidth and storage capability. For those who wish to understand more why I say this please refer to:

http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17476&highlight=yardbird

Enjoy!!

Think,

[quote]”You totally missed the entire premise of the artice, you may want to re-read
As always” [/quote]

The article’s premise was well understood as always!

It boils down to you trying very hard to explain how the mechanics you believe in that have been Kinesiologically challenged by actually credentialed experts as injurious and why you are still OK with, by edict of Paul.

You have had these injurious mechanics explained to you in anatomical and kinesiological detail as to why they produce the injuries you see with them.

I have never heard you explain in the same terms why these detailed explanations have any holes. The back up is on you. So far all we get out of you 2 are platitudes, personal attacks and mis-directions.

While others can learn from these posts, I am talking to you not “all of us” as you are trying to place yourself amongst. I believe others understand what has been said. It is you that keeps up the inverted timing protection banter.

Here, I’ll give you one change that is easy to understand and what Tommy John did to eliminate his poor “arrival” mechanics in much less than a year.
He was told to take his hand back by supinating (thumb up) his forearm instead of pronating it (thumb down) like your favorite arrival position produces! This is a very easy change that eliminates the scourge of “late forearm turnover” and allowed him to continue safely. It’s in no way very,very hard as your Guru believes.

The secret is performing ½ of your Humeral/forearm transition phase during the pendulum swing phase. This lessens the valgus bounce back by half. Ligaments hold bone to bone and have no contractive properties as Paul believes, they posses no “memory" either and when overstressed as your mechanic produces, tears.

I’m 60 years old but could pitch competitively if I wanted to because I did change my mechanics to the healthy arrival. It did not take that long to attain the change over, I now throw thousands of maximal pitches a week to my batting clients without inside elbow stress.

Now if we are to have this conversation you need to quote me without changing what I said. “I do it all the time with no effor” is not what I said now is it?

                                                                                                                                      What video, I got out of there as fast as I went there. I have seen plenty of video of Kershaw and he is no example of the “inverted W” and very close to where he should be to avoid the injuries it produces. He also has a clean straight (no scapular loading) Humeral arrival then transition to drive that will save his shoulder from degrading.Paul is so far from understanding this that he will never get there.                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                    [quote]”Verlander wasn't on there” [/quote]

Good, My mistake, I glanced the stills, like I do all stills with a suspicious eye because of their merit as proven by your use of them. Verlander also gets close to where he should be to avoid IW pathologies.

Is that what you got out of that? It is not only an issue, it’s a big issue because it makes pitchers late in their Humeral/forearm arrival that causes debilitating Valgus overstress on the UCL at the start of their forwards acceleration phase and no thanks to you for recommending it!!!

Would it do any good for you?
I have already explained in detail why this mechanic is injurious in those that use it and why it is going away rapidly in those that have the correct information.

What do you mean your? I was talking about my clients.
The same engrams that build and store a mechanic can also be added to. I’ll bet even you have seen someone throw over the top and from the side proficiantly?
As I asked you before and got no answer, have you not taught a pitcher a new pitch? Don’t you make changes in those that do not scapular load to scapular load as Paul demands you to do?

I see you have been listening to your Guru again and taking it in hook line and now your sunk.
How is it I can take a client and change his mechanic and you can not? You have been sold a bill of goods and got false info. Or you have taken partially good info. and taken the extreme embellishment belief.

Quid pro quo!!! I answer all your questions, always have. How about you answering mine? When are you going to post that pronation hack article 3 we have all been promised, I know you have it, maybe Paul has put the governor on you? He now has had plenty of time to rewrite! What control he has over you.

What happened to your sophomoric “secret” analogy?
I have given you this answer in the past and we are talking about your original post here not me and my techniques, if you need to change the subject because it is uncomfortable to talk about the injurious force application you have been talked into then start that thread. Stay on the track. You and Paul use this tactic no stop, this must be another technique learned from him and the hook is very deep.

Why would you think any level of ball is unorganized?
These changes are tried at all levels and at all times but progress is always advanced and even in higher levels many are now getting it and I don’t have an defeatist attitude like you and Paul with your constant, things can’t be learned, changed or added to mentality.

What failures? Your imagination is huge and unmanageable it seems. I would prefer to have an adult conversation where people who lurk can read with out the fog Changing the subject is pure fog.
Jimster,

This always means, I want to comment here and in the future but I have to use words like “chuckle” along the way.

No disclaimer necessary. Knowing this information will allow you to find the truth and actually use it. Please, get involved!!!

The Kinesiological expert that took Paul Nyman down for recommending injurious mechanics like the “inverted W” (elbow pathologies) and “scapular loading”(shoulder pathologies) is Dr.Mike Marshall. I’m pretty sure you already knew this?

Curious to what you think of my arm action and mechanics in general. Both ThinkTank and Yardbird, I’d like to get your opinions.

First pitch is a change, then a curve, and then a fastball.

I look forward to seeing what you guys think about my mechanics

Why do all of you continually argue with each other (Paul,Lantz,Lon,everybody else)?

Paul,
Why is it that you come out of the woodwork only when yard says something? Couldn’t you be using those keystrokes to offer mechanical advice to those who have asked for your not so humble opinions? At one point in time many people viewed you as a great source for throwing information, and a lot of people still use your theories or techniques today, but now you have stopped and you use your time to attack Mike Marshall advocates.

Yard,
I know you mean well, but dude you are preaching to the wrong crowd. Most of the people on here look at a Mike Marshall delivery and think you are crazy. I’d like to see if you or Marshall’s delivery can consistently produce high velo pitchers, but you are fighting a losing battle when the delivery is so far from the norm. BTW nobody here besides you is talking about the inverted W timing problem. The original article shows guys with Paul’s original definition of the W, not the timing problem. These guys show elbow dominant arm actions, not necessarily a timing problem. Why you continually think Paul and Lantz keep talking about the timing problem is beyond me.

Lantz,
I’m glad you started this article, and believe you help a lot of people, but you guys are all acting like children with the personal attacks. ALL of you.

If this pisses any of you off I DON’T CARE. Someone needed to say something and I couldn’t take it any more. None of you have solved anything by arguing. We should remember we are privileged to have this great game of baseball and have a forum as great as this one. These pointless arguments are a disrespect to this forum and the game itself.

I was reading this three-way diatribe and I couldn’t help laughing, because I recalled a book I read many years ago. The book was written by a behavioral psychologist who was describing all the things wrong with psychoanalytic theory; at one point he mentioned a dog chasing its tail. He said “It discovers nothing new, only itself, and barks out the great news to the world.” Isn’t this what we’re seeing here, what is supposed to be an intelligent discussion on an intelligent forum? All I can say is, “All right, you guys, grow up already and just realize that there are so many different pitchers with so many different views that it’s pointless to try to pin down one or another.” :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gents
If we take the personal jabs and barbs out of all of this, there’s something I believe is worth discussing. Marshall’s full mechanics aside, Yardbird is actually making one recommendation that could possible lead to an interesting conversation. I’m no Marshall mechanics advocate. Far from it. However, with me and my son having serious shoulder pain during external rotation when throwing with full effort, a couple of years ago I tried what Yard describes as bringing the [quote]… hand back by supinating (thumb up) … instead of pronating it (thumb down)…[/quote]
A little bit at a time, gradually lengthening the distance, we threw. No shoulder pain. I, at 54 years old, could throw long toss with full effort and no pain, as did my son. If I do that with the normal, thumb down on the backswing approach, the pain is excruciating. Now, Yardbird mentions that this motion protects the UCL because it [quote]…eliminates … “late forearm turnover”…performing ½ of your Humeral/forearm transition phase during the pendulum swing phase. This lessens the valgus bounce back by half.[/quote]

However, with us, it also mitigated the shoulder issue.

The question in my mind is whether or not the supination on the way back, i.e. “pie throwing”, actually can allow for high velocities. I’ve not tested this. What I do know is that, for me, it allows me to throw with full effort and no pain, for the first time in 20 years.

[quote]Biomechanically the inverted W satisfies certain physics and physiological principles with respect to throwing the baseball with optimal efficiency.

  1. Develops and maintains momentum and momentum is with determines how hard you throw the baseball.

  2. Improve the ability to create external rotation and it’s been demonstrated that extra rotation is a key component in developing velocity.

  3. Develops external rotation momentum which is critical to creating elastic potential energy in the connective tissues.

  4. Is consistent with developing a whipping transfer of momentum.

  5. Create an arm action and release action on the baseball that promotes ball movement.

These are some of the key highlights as to why I believe the inverted W is an efficient and effective way to throw the baseball. [/quote]

[quote]However, with us, it also mitigated the shoulder issue.

The question in my mind is whether or not the supination on the way back, i.e. “pie throwing”, actually can allow for high velocities. I’ve not tested this. What I do know is that, for me, it allows me to throw with full effort and no pain, for the first time in 20 years.[/quote]

This is why I really like my world…I see the benefits of both and don’t find them in exclusion of each other.

What I’ve always seen from Paul is a descriptive of what the motion does and methods in which they are achieved…this year…according to Lantz, we have a crop of guys who develop their velocity in this oft criticized way (bad W…bad bad!!) I’ve got no problem with that observation…what I see in Marshall, I see a guy trying to figure out methods which reduce/eliminate arm injury, now ultimately folks like Lon have incorporated the thought into what they teach…they believe in it…now it doesn’t mean I appreciate the methods of promotion (Demonization is repellant to me) but I don’t discount the methodology they are approaching it with (reinforcement over-load training and maximizing efficiency of arm path). Will DM hit 90? No but he can hit his sons glove without excruciating pain, which is a win.

It is both frustrating and invigorating to see passionate people being passionate at what they do. Yes many times it is chasing our tail…but darn it…sometimes we get soooo close :wink: