Wrote a new blog article about long toss, and the pros/cons of it all!
Nice stuff Kyle
I’ve always been astonished by the virulent hatred mounted against this simple drill.
I don’t think what you see is directed at the drill as much as it is when the drill gets abused.
No, I’m speaking of folks like Dick Mills who actively campaigns against the drill, he isn’t the only one but I’d consider him the most notable. To him he views it as a waste of pitchers time and he continually rails against it as “bad” because it isn’t work off of the mound. You surprise me Score, you’ve seen he and I argue the point extensively on ASMI’s site.
So that is what I meant.
Actually got him to say…once that he had no issue with it as a dynamic warm-up…but then he returned to his rhetoric that it was terrible for velocity development. To me the unfortunate thing is how much of his positive ability to analyze mechs is lost to hours of tongue wagging about a simple drill. :roll:
Well, what else can one expect of a pitcher whose total major league experience consisted of 3 2/3 innings of relief, no decision? Sure he rails against long toss, probably never did it himself. It reminds me of the old fable about the dog in the manger. He couldn’t eat the hay that was stored there, but he didn’t let anyone else near it. :greenmartian:
Is Mills against J Bands and arm circles?
Is he against catching with a partner on flat ground at short distance?
Is he against loose and relaxed throwing motions?
Is he against ever going out past 60 feet? If so how do outfielders double as pitchers without training for distance throws?
Is he against throwing with an arc and with some effort?
Is he against crow hopping into a throw?
Is he against translating arc energy into linear energy?
Is he against throwing with max effort at pitching distances on flat ground?
It’s a good example of how labels interfere with honest discussion. “Long Toss” is a broad term describing many elements of velocity development and preventative strengthening exercises.
It is not just tossing and it is not just long. Try to have a discussion with Mills without using the term “Long Toss”. It’s like trying to talk about gun control without saying the term “assault weapon.”
I never understood why Mills chose to take a stand against something he readily admits hasn’t been researched enough to know if it is developmentally advantageous. Other than adopting the “evil long toss” mantra does define your niche clearer and ensures loyalty to your brand.
[quote=“jdfromfla”]No, I’m speaking of folks like Dick Mills who actively campaigns against the drill, he isn’t the only one but I’d consider him the most notable. To him he views it as a waste of pitchers time and he continually rails against it as “bad” because it isn’t work off of the mound. You surprise me Score, you’ve seen he and I argue the point extensively on ASMI’s site.
So that is what I meant.
Actually got him to say…once that he had no issue with it as a dynamic warm-up…but then he returned to his rhetoric that it was terrible for velocity development. To me the unfortunate thing is how much of his positive ability to analyze mechs is lost to hours of tongue wagging about a simple drill. :roll:[/quote]
Well, I can’t honestly defend Dick Mills against much of anything because I view him as one of the worst examples of being against things mainly because he didn’t dream them up. Then too, I don’t tend to defend many who’ve made millions from people who don’t know how to choose well those they listen to in making important decisions.
But this too is like the MM argument. Personally, I’ve always been astonished by the virulent hatred mounted against him. Its as though people think he’s purposely trying to hold their kid back, or trying to get people to do things that wouldn’t be in their best interest.
But on LT, to me there are credible reasons to at least be careful about its use. In fact, I’ve had 2 very well respected ML pitching coaches who also have no problem with it being used as a dynamic warm-up, but “suspect” it as a velocity development tool. But then again, by the time pitchers get to the pro level, it isn’t velocity they’re trying to develop.
But back to my original premise, I don’t think it’s the drill as much as how it gets applied. If someone gets all the information about how it should be used, then instructs the kid and monitors him closely, I don’t see a big deal. But you know how a lot of people are, kids especially. If a little is good, a lot is better, and a ridiculous amount is best, and they end up overdoing things and causing problems.
I agree Score, when I see someone who suggests to exclusively use lt for velo development…I immediately question their skills and abilities in the developmental area.
Believe it or not I conditionally agree about the MM comment…except much of it is self-inflicted on their part…I mean to tell a parent they are an abuser simply because they don’t subscribe to the “notions” is asking for pushback that will be…shall we say …excited
To my opinion, “abuse” of the drill/method is to use it in the way I described earlier as sole means of velo development…this to me cheats the player/parent who is paying for that “wisdom”.
So, are we to believe then that only a person with a high level of MLB success can be a good teacher? In my opinion many of the best are people that have really had to struggle to get to whatever level they ended up at. The “golden boys” who roll out of bed at 16 years old and throw 90+ usually are not great instructors because they havent had to work that hard to develop that area of their skill set. Im quite sure you dont believe this and I am no great supporter of Mills, however, saying his opinion isent valid because he didnt post of MLB wins is faulty as well.
I agree with Score, its about application. The last time I drove by the high school that is close to where I work there were some guys long tossing, I pulled over and watched a couple of minutes. They were goofing around, throwing sidearm ect going out with big arcs, no focus on accuracy on the throws (the guys were having to move several feet either direction to catch the throws) no hard pull down coming back in. In other words, to me, this is just playing catch as a warm up and not what someone like Jaeger would describe as a “longtoss” program. They were not doing it right. With such little attention being paid to how they were actually throwing and the point of the program I cant imagine they did any sort of decent warmup or shoulder routine. Sort of wasting their time in my opinion.
Nice article man!
Can’t nail the drill where management fails to monitor compliance.
but without Jaegers program…it still isn’t necessarily “bad”…as I’ve mentioned I consider it good for body/arm vitality. The point I think is that without it…good coaches have methodology which replaces that drill with another…it is just a tool in the tool bag, used right, positive things can happen…wrong and the hometown burns down…(Negative consequences )…which covers just about all drill work…doesn’t it?
I’ve found Jaeger’s program to be really beneficial for my HS son. But as stated by others there is certainly more to conditioning than long toss. It’s simply another tool.
This is a really good article explaining the Jaeger conditioning program step through step.
[quote=“Turn 22”]I’ve found Jaeger’s program to be really beneficial for my HS son. But as stated by others there is certainly more to conditioning than long toss. It’s simply another tool.
This is a really good article explaining the Jaeger conditioning program step through step.[/quote]
Thanks for the articles. Looks like something that can be done easily in the back yard while waiting for dad to come home from work. (Our backyard is the school’s soccer and baseball field.)
This video is the best explanation of Jaeger’s long toss program, I think.
Really the only difference between the video and the article is Jaeger’s explanations of the drills before long toss and his clarification of the distances which may help some younger guys that can’t get out to 300 plus feet.
Kyle is right, the video is very good.
Here’s another interesting article on extreme Long Toss. I found Dr. Fleisig’s comments to be very interesting, because he opens up and is pretty direct in his opinions on the subject:
Dr Fleisig is well respected and is very knowledgable. But I think the difference is apples and oranges.
If you read Jeager’s article, the going out phase is to warm the arm and lengthen the muscles. He recommends going out as far as the arm allows comfortably.
The pull down phase of the program is the strengthening phase, using proper mechanics and targets online.
What I found interesting about the article is that Dr. Fleisig seems to be more critical of ELT than in his paper. And expands upon why he has issues with ELT- mechanics breaking down, stress to shoulder and elbow, and ball velocity at release. He also does not have issues with LT (inside of 120 feet) and draws a distinction between LT and ELT.
Dr. Fleisig is equating stress with damage. I strongly disagree with this correlation.
As far as mechanics being less efficient at extreme distances, he certainly has a point there.