Stride Length slowing arm action?


#1

This is an issue that I found on SetPro that I had posted and Paul had comited on that I thought would be a good discussion to start on here. The first clip was Jan 08 and was used as a example on a E-book we feel that this is when we had him at the best in his mechanics and would like to get back to.
The next was done Sept 10 it seems to us and the poster on SetPro that our focus on his stride length has slowed is arm action/intent and made it longer.
If anyone else sees it let us know just wanted some more eyes.


#2

I agree that “over-striding” on purpose can decrease arm speed. Not sure about these particular clips in question, though. Do you have velocity readings?


#3

Well the first clip in 08 was 69 and in Mar of 2010 he was at 83. I was looking at some old clips and it seems in the 2 years that we have focused to much on the stride and lost arm action.
This is the post that made alot of since

[i]FlippJ

Guest In my opinion the quickest way to lose or stay stagnant with velocity is to focus on your body at the expense of your arm (action). It happened to my son and I think it has happened to your son. His arm seems to have gone from being the driving force supported by his body, to being along for the ride driven by his body. The focus on stride length appears to have also lengthened his arm swing. It was short and explosive but it’s now long and drawn out. The ironic thing about it is that not only has his arm action regressed but so have his lower body mechanics.[/i]
[i]So where do you go from here? Well the first thing you need to do is relax. It’s not like your son is horrible. If the velocity numbers are accurate he’s obviously advanced for his age. I personally don’t think Paul is suggesting that you shorten your son’s stride length. My interpretation of what he’s saying is that you shouldn’t be worried about his stride length at all, and that his stride length will be what it needs to be based on how he’s throwing the baseball. So focus on how he’s throwing the baseball (i.e. arm action).

That’s my 2 cents…[/i]


#4

I do agree that over-stride can be a negative factor, I’d really love to see him in cleats on a mound. I think a continued focus on the arm action drills and just keeping him in front of the curve conditioning wise and strength wise. Keep in mind he’s not going to have linear growth all the way through his time. Personally his latest delivery appears smoother and better schooled. Remember as he advances in his technique his physical body will also have to catch up…imo he hasn’t regressed, just entering a new phase. Tmac I think he’s looking great, using the entire body to assist in the delivery isn’t bad. As long as his proper focus is maintained.


#5

Without getting into the video too deeply, I agree mostly with jdfromfla. He loses a bit of intent and probably a bit of “stretch,” but his delivery looks more fluid now. And if velocities are accurate, he’s doing well.


#6

T-

Not sure what basis you have for saying his arm action is now slower. It looks to me that his arm motion is slower up to the point the shoulders rotate because he stays closed longer and his shoulder rotation now occurs later. But from that point on, his arm action looks just as fast if not faster - looks like his hand travels a further distance in the same time as the shorter motion.


#7

It is more for discussion on stride length but I though it was effecting my guys arm action.
I will post what Paul had to say last spring about his stride and how it effects arm action.

[i]Paul

Join Date Jan 1999
Posts 9,160
Blog Entries5

With respect to the above clip two observations:

  1. As the hands separate (break) center of gravity drops dramatically i.e. posting leg collapses. This is the classic kiss of death i.e. pushing off the rubber which puts the player in almost an impossible position to rotate effectively because they get so stretched out and to the point where the player is almost throwing up hill.

  2. Hips move toward home plate through the entire throw i.e. there is no “arresting/converting” Lydia momentum to rotation or should I say at least not to the point of most efficiently and effectively converting momentum into rotation.[/i]


#8

Are you saying that you think the extension he derives is effecting timing to the point where he loses his ability to drive his arm action? I think that can happen. I don’t get the bottom two are they supposed to be “better or worse” examples?
Paul made no mention of “shortening it up”, to me it sounds like he wants some firming up of the front side and not collapsing the post leg.


#9

The way I read it is at the time he felt that the one on the Rt he was getting to latteral and loosing intent with arm action. And I do agree on firming up the front side. The first post is were we are at now, the one above is last spring.


#10

i’m not a pro but i’ll give my opinion for what it’s worth.

the last video does look like an attempt to throw like Lincecum (or stride too far). the thing that worries me the most is his lack of fielding position after he throws. the body rotation just doesn’t stop. i would expect the body to convert the rotation into forward motion and the lower body to stabilize.

both me and my son had that same problem when we worked on stride length. when we stride too long we both ended up sideways or even with our butt towards the batter after release.

there seems to be a point where you just feel like you’re gliding and you’re along for the ride and things start working correctly. we both found a place where we are feeling like it doesn’t take much effort to throw hard and accurate anymore. of course we could be completely missing it. lol. i posted some videos of both me and my son so you can decide if we’re clueless. check out Ross J Johnson and Nicolas Johnson and gimme your thoughts.

on the good side: your boy is throwing some heat for his age! i only hope my son does as well.


#11

I personally see little difference between the two arm actions, the one on the right is simply a little longer.

Overall I would be worried about his posting leg collapsing, that can lead to problems developing velocity. Work on his leg strength. Don’t worry about stride length, it will come if one focuses on momentum, that is getting the hips as far forward before the front legs begins its stride.

Basically to get a longer stride work on getting your momentum, that will take care of it.

Watch guys who have long strides such as Beckett, Oswalt, and Lincecum notice how far out their hips get before they actually begin to sit on their back leg. Then compare them to your son’s delivery


#12

[quote=“singtall”]i’m not a pro but i’ll give my opinion for what it’s worth.

the last video does look like an attempt to throw like Lincecum (or stride too far). the thing that worries me the most is his lack of fielding position after he throws. the body rotation just doesn’t stop. i would expect the body to convert the rotation into forward motion and the lower body to stabilize.

both me and my son had that same problem when we worked on stride length. when we stride too long we both ended up sideways or even with our butt towards the batter after release.

there seems to be a point where you just feel like you’re gliding and you’re along for the ride and things start working correctly. we both found a place where we are feeling like it doesn’t take much effort to throw hard and accurate anymore. of course we could be completely missing it. lol. i posted some videos of both me and my son so you can decide if we’re clueless. check out Ross J Johnson and Nicolas Johnson and gimme your thoughts.

on the good side: your boy is throwing some heat for his age! i only hope my son does as well.[/quote]

The reason we dont teach ending in a fielding postition is because if we arrest the rotation we feel the rotation=volicity. (Paul Nyman)
The clips show me that there is not much drive from the back side and loss of power, not much of a finish. This is why we sacrifice a little feilding position for volicity. Clips have good things I would just work on the finish either fielding or rotional.


#13

The clip on the left shows a more “over the top” arm slot, coming through at about 11:00, while the one on the right shows a 10:00 or less slot. All of this is the result of postural differences between the two. There is considerably more lean to the glove side in the clip on the left, facilitating or causing the higher arm slot. The one of the right shows a much more upright posture (kind of a la House/NPA), thus the lower arm slot.

There is also less total shoulder rotation in the left clip. In neither clip is there significant back leg extension. I’d almost call this a “dead back side”, although there’s plenty of controversy as to what good back leg action really means or is.

I don’t have a problem with arm “action” (as differentiated from arm “slot”) in the clip on the left. I’m not crazy over the higher elbow lift on the one on the right (now don’t get all O’Leary on me, now).

I like the upper body and arm action on the left but I’d like to see more lower body contribution, more like the clip on the right.


#14

Thanks dm59…Dont worry about the O’Leary thing. what do you thank about the difference of the first clips…


#15

I am glad you didn’t take the advice of not allowing the hip to rotate areound the posting leg. 'Wolforth/Strom teach that this allows the hip and the lats to decelerate the arm and takes off stress from the shoulder and elbow.

As for his arm action, I think it looks good. It doesn’t look like his elbow is going over the shoulder. On thing LankyLefty mentioned in his training diary was that Eric Cressey suggested using the lats to scap load. I suspect some of the trouble with scap loading with the elblows above the shoulders lies in the fact that to get to this position the trapezius needs to dominate the lats and the shoulders are not packed down into the joint.


#16

Using the “lats to scap load” implies pulling back and down with the shoulder blades, for what it’s worth.


#17

I really like the mechanics and timing in the right clip of the second pair of clips posted above. I feel he looks smooth and effortless which is a result of good sequencing and timing. And he really comes at you while hiding the ball well until he’s a lot closer to you (the batter). I would also expect better movement on breaking pitches from the release point that is out in front of the front foot as opposed to the release point that is higher up AND FURTHER BACK.


#18

It’s hard to tell from a slow motion clip but the one on the left “appears” to show more intent and explosiveness but I can’t be sure from these clips. I figured you’d be impressed by the right hand clip. It really is very NPA. The smoothness you note could also be seen as a negative in terms of possible lack of intent. I find the shoulder rotation in the “smooth” one isn’t as good as in the other. It just looks a little to “sleepy” to me. I’d like to see a full speed video though to be able to really see what’s up.


#19

dm59 he plays this weekend I will get some full speed clips.
We threw a pin last night and worked on better posture, like was said above it seems that the higher arm slot causes his off speed to work better and more movement on FB.
Just asking for some inputs on working on a slider. I did some research and to me the way Carlton/Clemens threw it appears to be the safest way…


#20

The arm action does seem to slow down at the bottom in the newer clip, mostly because it is stalling in preparation for the rest of the body to catch up.

Have you done any backwards chaining work or is it strictly pens/long toss?