strasburg

watching him pitch, same mechanics but he looks really mentally uncomfortable… the inverted V is just hard for his arm, for anyones arm

unfortunately i just heared the announcer say if you want to copy anyones mechanics, copy this guy

just crushed with this mindset traditional baseball has

What mindset is that Drewski? MLB is a business, they are not there for the health and well being…other than getting the highest performance for the longest period…All these guys know that…it’s the trade off…You, as a Steven Strassburg get millions, you get fame and you get the ramifications of training your body to throw that fast…how many are in line waiting for their chance? No it isn’t MLB…they produce a product…you and me and all the other fans we watch, we cheer and we give them our cash…we all need to look at home before we are critical…if fans hated the program we’d change it…seems like there is just not as much interest in 80-89 and a great pitcher…except at a much lower rate (Triple A or below in the minors).

Couldn’t of said it any better JD

lol i dont know why you give them your cash, im not a fan im a player lol. and dont forget the relievers who pitch for 10-15 seasons also make millions; just not as many millions. i just know that since he didnt change his mechanics he will have issues long term… the mindset the MLB has is theres plenty of money to throw to the faces of the elite throwers, and i’d take 15 mil to pitch one year for surgery afterwards hell yeah, so strasburg is the real genious he gave the MLB what they wanted and said “but yall need to make sure my bank account has 14 mil tax-free by spring if you want those seats filled”

but this thread wasnt my intent to start a busness idealology war, simply a motion discussion

What resource have you found that would lead you to believe this?

I mean, isn’t it easy to say that a certain pitcher will have arm problems long term. That’s a pretty safe call. Pitching is hazardous to your arm. A lot of pitching is more hazardous than a little. Throwing with high velocity is more hazardous than throwing with low velocity. That’s about the sum total of facts that I’m willing to commit to.

Besides, it is his mechanics. It’s what makes him marketable.

While I agree that there is not empirical evidence to prove his mechanics are ‘bad’ - I wholeheartedly disagree that he is marketable because of them.

Strasburg is marketable because he throws 100, has a great curveball, and used to be out of shape.

If you are saying his mechanics allow him to throw 100 (and that is why he is marketable), then you are partially correct and I will concede.

Thats the facts Kyle…those “mechs”…good bad or indifferent, have put those numbers on the gun and that breaking stuff has given him a very hi K ratio…if he threw like my favorite pitcher on earth…Mr Greg Maddux…would he even be in the league? Would he be able to retire tomorrow?..Would he be in the show?? Same with The Express and The Rocket…samey same…they were there…they made the MPH and the big canola…whatever the “big canola” was in their day. The price? Whatever it was for them, they paid and not one of them…not one, would sacrifice his career for non-injury…

What resource have you found that would lead you to believe this?

I mean, isn’t it easy to say that a certain pitcher will have arm problems long term. That’s a pretty safe call. Pitching is hazardous to your arm. A lot of pitching is more hazardous than a little. Throwing with high velocity is more hazardous than throwing with low velocity. That’s about the sum total of facts that I’m willing to commit to.

Besides, it is his mechanics. It’s what makes him marketable.[/quote]

dont have the funds to provide a case study team on google for you guys. however i know very many players who land with the hand at or below shoulder height with elbow/shoulder issues.

you dont see many elite throwers do this, i am more open minded than some here i look at javelins, discus, hammer throws, shotputs, and football… the hand is in motion behind the head as energy is traveled to the chest… no science to prove trends, they are trends lol common sense usually takes place here.

■■■■■■■■■■■.net

has great input on supporting my opinions (which are based on facts, not just emotional output) go to the articles section and read.

hitting close to being a consistent low 90s thrower i realize the importance of the arm being in a proper anatomical position to throw (as well as the entire body which is each to its own), Chris O leary does a great job explaining that on this site, in fact he is where i base my “opinions”

anyway about the marketable comment which is kind of a moot point and a futile argument. Mark Prior was a marketable object

so is trevor bauer/lincecum/tim hudson

I don’t mind Chris O’Leary having an opinion and publishing it on the internet for all to read. I just hate to see any high level pitcher buying his theory lock stock and barrel and repeating it because anyone who throws 90 + mph is going to influence younger players in a way that could be detrimental to their development if they discourage the use of mechanics that have been used by other elite pitchers.

Scap loading, inverted V, inverted W, and hyperabduction are all seen in major league players and young pitchers develop their mechanics by incorporating or patterning their delivery after them. There is no reason a major league pitcher should change anything about his mechanics as long as he is effective. Isn’t that how he got there in the first place? What’s the use of having “good” mechanics if you are getting your arse handed to you by hitters?
p
And I can’t believe that O’Leary can’t find another horse to ride other than the Mark Prior gig. Prior was a very effective major league pitcher until he had some bad luck with injuries unrelated to throwing the ball.

What about Bob Feller? Inverted W, scap loader…hall of famer…no injuries…why not?

I think Mark Prior did have some mechanical issues that lead to his arm problems. But part of the problem is genetics. Not everyone’s body can handle the rigors of throwing a ball at a high speed. Throwing a ball is bad for the arm. It isn’t natural. Some guys have better tendons than others.

Mark probably did some things that made things worse, but like Dino said. Guys have done things ‘wrong’ and pitched long healthy careers.

Good for you… 8)

Tell me about Mark Prior, did he have any injury before he was injured in the base paths? Do you or Chris have access to his medical records or history?

Chris is a tremendous marketeer, he has no evidence, none. His speculation about the mechanics of Mark Prior are specious…pure conjecture based on zero facts…this is his and your right…don’t come on here and express it and think you won’t be challenged and refuted. You are completely wrong about Mark Prior…it disqualifies your ridiculous contentions…or are you, like Chris, thinking you know more than James Andrews M.D., who said Marks injuries were only consitent with fall injuries and not any pitching injury he has ever seen…I’ve not even brought up the crush fracture injury via line drive to his pitching elbow…which happened the next season after his shoulder was damaged severely by Marcus Giles in the base path.
You got the plan…good lay it out…tell us about it…involk your mentor…fine…but realize that others will point out that Chris himself goes on BB Fever and asks for the most rudimentry kid training questions…because all he has ever done is to train his little league kids. I don’t fault that or his ability to look at pictures and get folks to agree. It just doesn’t make his methods or thoughts anything more than conjecture. At ths point he (Chris) would cite the fact that he has gotten some folks (Those “scouts” and what not) to listen…I congratulate that…he is an outstanding marketeer. Doesn’t mean he understands how to train anyone. He hasn’t, he’s looked and analyzed and made recommendations…law of odds are going to make at least a portion of what he says correct. So what-ever Drewski…Chris could have written your post…search the site here…several kids…usually 12-14 come on here and tell us all about it…all the genious that is O’Leary, then they find they need someone to actually train them…to teach them how to adjust and to develop their mechs and they move on…

noo lol i just used chris as a method of explaining where the arm should be

i realize you guys dont know much about throwing or kinects because theres comments about a sentence what i said about leary and no refute over the paragraph i wrote about other types of throwers. i forgot to add cricket throwers. anyone look at top velocity.net? i didnt do it for my own sake i am trying to englighten some of you. unfortunatly i realize i cannot do so until i have major league credentials, so give me some time please.

uhh anthony reyes i believe pitched for either the Reds or cardinals but his improper scap loading put his arm in an unstable anatomical position… i hope some of you took some form of anatomy class to know how tissues are structured around bones to provide support from sheer forces

drew storen who i trained with at PPD in boston, mass has elbow problems and he was a significant scap loader like prior/stras

the whole genetic comment was kind of irrevelant and a weak excuse to cop out of an opinion that you cant falsify (mine).

bob feller has great mechanics, and has no inverted V at footplant please dont take me for an idiot ive learned by trial and error to throw the ball into the low 90s without suffering from chronic injury

at minute 1:49 his throwing arm is in a strong position before forces take the chest forward which puts the arm in ER

maybe i should take this thread to the mechanics forum. people here seem to be missing my point and that’s my fault i apologize.

Drewski, Top Velo has been on here, he’s got a plan…experience, you like him…great…

Here is a little something called a fact…allowable in court, it is Mark Prior’s official MLB history…it also refutes one of your…opinions
Nope no arm injury before Giles…hummm
http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8297&highlight=

Feller also had a 4 year vacation :wink:

Chris OLeary quote;

[quote]Bob Feller isn’t an exception to the rule[1], he’s a confounded example due to the hole in his career.

Confounded is a statistical term that means that other factors could be at play, so you should throw the example out.

What is confounded about the example of Bob Feller is that he didn’t throw a baseball in a major league game for 4 full seasons, and probably didn’t throw much in 5 calendar years,[2] which means his arm would have had plenty of time to heal from any injuries.[3]

I would argue that Feller makes the case for the importance of timing, but the fact is that you can’t say anything either way given the hole in his career.

[1] As I say, Tom Glavine is an exception to the rule, or perhaps the exception that proves the rule.

[2] Bob Feller was inducted into the navy on December 8, 1941 and missed 4 full baseball seasons.

[3] Back in the days before surgery, the only option for injured guys was to sit out for a season or more and hope and pray that the body would fix itself. Sometimes it did. Sometimes it didn’t.[/quote]

Drewski

Are you saying Feller doesn’t have an inverted W?

heres your facts jacks

Dino, fellers foot has yet to settle and you draw where his arms are? not very intelligent if you know anything about mechanics everyone gets there differently

this pretty much solidifies my arguments to a T

September 2002

Strained hamstring while running the bases

Rest of season

Midseason 2003

Shoulder after on-field collision with former Atlanta Braves second baseman Marcus Giles.

3 Starts

Preseason 2004

Achilles tendon injury

2 months

Preseason 2005

Elbow strain

15 days

May 27, 2005

Throwing elbow - comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe

1 month

this was off statistics from Priors career, who knows what injuries he sustained in college baseball

and as far as strasburg, bad timing and a short stride land arm problems as well as any other kinectally miscoordinated thrower of any sport

http://www.ericcressey.com/tag/tommy-john-surgery

http://www.pitching.com/blog/will-college-pitchers-mechanics-and-101-mph-velocity-lead-to-surgery/

my favorite, next to eric cresseys awesomeness

http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■.net/the-pitchers-cure-to-the-inverted-w-l/

do not fear failure, or you will never push yourself. do not fear being wrong, or you will never strive to be right

this is all a learning process, and i have enjoyed every bit of it even if my hard fastball doesnt land me a million dollars. it was bloody worth it

+1 for proper pitching mechanics dawn of new era

double post, but its been fun guys you really need to do some research and broaden your knowledge of how the body moves. its a constant learning experience for me so get to it!

from one of the links i posted above

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – multiple biomechanics experts interviewed for this story

“The No. 1 risk factor for UCL injuries is poor mechanics,” he says. “The No. 2 factor is overuse. And if you overuse with poor mechanics, you’re doomed.”

not to be arrogant because i have no piece of paper that validates who i am (but im trying), just learn from me

Here is how I take my stand on the issue of Inverted W, I don’t do it and never had, my natural arm movement never included. So if it is an issue I won’t have to worry about it. Also if it is an issue all it does is thin out the competition for pitching. Every level you try getting too, chances get slimmer and slimmer, and while I would never wish an injury on anyone, if you choose to do something in your mechanics like the inverted W then it’s you own risk. However read articles about it on the topic and then make your own decision about it.
And just to throw it out there Ron Wolforth form what I have heard believes your throwing elbow should stay below your shoulder until after foot plant and scap load as well.

You think it benefits every other person except you to think the same way?

You think there aren’t experienced and informed people (thousands of them) trying to make pitching safer and more efficient?

Wake up. You are the one drinking Kool-Aid.

Drewski,

You seem to be well read on the subject. Have you reviewed what Paul Nyman says about throwing mechanics? If so, what is your opinion of his contribution to pitching?