Still having issues


#1

here we are working on mechanics before Nicolas’ 3rd game. he only threw a few for the video, but the results were interesting. for the first few balls he threw, he worked on a good stride and overall mechanics based on suggestions from this forum (thanks guys). for the first part of the video his stride and drag line look much better to me, but his accuracy was off. after a few throws, i asked him to throw a strike any way he wanted to. the second part of the clip shows those mechanics. he threw harder with deadly accuracy…with bad mechanics.

do we just keep throwing with the first “better” mechanics until he learns to throw strikes? he said the second throw felt like more arm involved. not good if you asked me.


#2

I have some thoughts, but what I find more interesting is why you think the 2nd mechanics are “worse” than the first?


#3

a couple of reasons:

  1. less stride distance
  2. less separation
  3. foot off of the ground when ball is released
  4. his head stays more level instead of getting lower from the longer stride.

these are things we picked up from this forum (see last post).

i’m not sure if you are trying to be helpful or just a butt. instead of answering the question asked, you seem to just attack me and what i know. again, i’m here asking for help and trying everything you guys suggest. if you are not going to offer help, why bother posting a response at all? sorry if i seem a little aggravated but this isn’t the first go round we’ve had on this subject.


#4

i found some video footage from a lesson with Brent Pourciau earlier this year and posted a small excerpt that really helped Nicolas today. i’ll post the video of Nicolas throwing with this mechanics thought in mind. he just went outside and threw a bunch of strikes with a big stride and decent mechanics.


#5

No not at all (trying to be a butt lol). I’m just trying to understand what you see and hopefully give some objective views to learn from.

Anyways… what I see from the first video (the one you say is “bad”) is that yes he gets a decent stride and has decent tempo, but he has huge arm action and timing issues. His arm comes out of the glove and “waits” for the rest of his body before it throws the ball.

The second video, yes there are things that I don’t like (lack of “sit” as he moves out, lack of rotation… other things), but his timing is MUCH better. It also looks like he is having an easier time throwing.

So I would suggest to try and build off the timing of the 2nd clip, with some of the stride and leg lift of the first.


#6

Singtall, it is very common for control (and velocity as a matter of fact) to initially be worse when changing one’s mechanics. Once the new mechanics become more normalized to the body, requiring little to no thought of having to have x body part in certain position so y body part can do this, etc. etc., you should see the improvements you’re looking for.

I would recommend focusing on one thing at a time. Let him determine how his mechanics will be unique to himself (no two people will throw identically alike!), but there are definitely certain aspects all high level throwers have in common.


#7

Me too

Yes it is, patience over time is what you need, don’t think that he’ll fix instantly and permanently…he’ll have to work on his stuff til he doesn’t throw anymore…my 20 yr old was working on his today and thought he threw crappy…it happens…if it was easy it wouldn’t pay as it does…no?

101 did challenge you once but he is a good guy and not prone to be anything but helpful, try to relax, no one here wants to do anything but help.
We do argue stuff but when it comes to helping a kid all crap usually departs…Keep the faith and keep working…the boy will get better and stay healthy.


#8

There are about 10 frames or so where the arm is doing nothing but waiting in this clip. If you can combine the lower half of this delivery…

…with the timing and arm action of this delivery, you will be on your way.

Now there is still lot’s to work on, and yes concentrate on one thing at a time (actually you could try to tackle one aspect at each throwing session but you will have to see how that goes), but these are the main things that I see. Timing and arm action.

Arm action is king in my book. Focus on that first, then the posture, rhythm and timing issues will happen that much easier.

Another tip. Try to at least include a regular speed clip with your slow motion. It is hard to get frame counts with the slow motion clips. Actually it’s best if you learn how to make animated GIF’s that you can post right into your posts.

As I said in another post, you are lucky and have time because your son is only 10. That’s good because the changes will happen a lot faster than when he is 16 or 17.

But still don’t think that they will happen and STICK (especially under game stress) after a few sessions. This stuff don’t happen and stay with you overnight. Weeks and months of concentrated practice and many QUALITY reps have to happen before you will really see if changes have been made.


#9

thanks 101mph. the video clips you posted have really helped my son to understand what he needs to do. i wish we would have seen the clips before he pitched tonight. lol.

here he is pitching the worst inning he ever had. 20 strikes and 32 balls. he missed high 90% of the time that he threw a ball. everything was pretty much over the plate, just too high.

we are thinking that we will leave his arm action alone and just work on the stride and drag line.


#10

Mind if I butt in? I see that this whole discussion has developed into a full-blown argument, with various people taking sides and nothing being accomplished. So—
First off, I agree that the arm action needs to be left strictly alone. One thing that should never be done is mess around with a pitcher’s arm slot, his arm action, what have you. Whatever it is, be it overhand, 3/4, sidearm or standing on one’s head, the thing to do—if you’re going to do anything—is work with it, not against it, and show the pitcher how to make the most of it.
Second—it seems to me that all of you are missing a very important aspect of good mechanics. This is something I learned many moons ago as a kid, and here it is: You have to get your whole body into the action. You need to drive off the lower half of the body, using the legs, the hips and the torso in one continuous (and seamless) motion, so that the arm and shoulder are, in effect, just going along for the ride. In this way you will not only generate more power behind your pitches, you will also throw harder—and faster—with less effort, because a lot of pressure is taken off said arm and shoulder. I learned this from watching the Yankees’ fabled Big Three rotation in action, and I saw just how they were doing it, and I made a note of it and started working on it on my own. Result, among other things? Nary a sore arm or a sore shoulder or a sore anything else! So I firmly believe that this is something the pitcher in question needs to start working on—and as he gets the hang of it, he’ll find that a lot of other important elements will fall into place.
Okay? 8)


#11

thanks Zita. i didn’t mean for this to be a heated discussion. we are just like everybody else who wants to throw perfect right now. lol.

we understand the need for whole body seemless throwing, it’s just that we don’t know the easiest way to teach it or get it to happen.

a few people have given us some really good tips on how to get the stride out farther. the one that worked best was teaching the pitcher to throw the lead leg out towards the batter. it actually resulted in almost 100% of body height stride lengths in all pitchers tonight. before that tip we were trying to get them to sit on the back leg or keep the weight on it longer, which didn’t help much. throwing the lead leg out towards the batter actually causes the correct weight shift and back leg action. that’s our experience anyways.

me and Nic worked on timing and leg action a little after reading the tips and seeing the video clips made by 101mph and i saw Nic smile for the first time tonight. he gets it. that means a lot to me. all of the drills in the world aren’t worth squat if they don’t translate into real permanent change. Nic is feeling more comfortable and is making the changes gladly. he now understands that he will lose some accuracy along the way, but in the end his mechanics will give him back the speed and accuracy he wants. he is ready to work to get there.

thanks everyone.


#12

sorry for the double post. i’ll delete one.


#13

[quote=“Zita Carno”]… the arm action needs to be left strictly alone.[/quote]I really disagree with this one and have always disagreed with it as a blanket statement that applies in all cases. This is an example where intervention will help a kid. I’m with 101mph. Placing the ball up there and waiting will not help this kid advance. Things need to be a lot more fluid. Pulling the ball in by the head isn’t something I’d recommend either. The timing issue should be addressed.

Then there’s the glove side. It’s a hindrance actually, how it flails out, up a bit, then swings or flops down to the side and back. Some good glove side management, as per Roger or laflippin’s advice, would help a lot.


#14

Really… nothing being accomplished?

So you’re OK with this type of arm action?

I’m not talking about arm slot. Arm action is the way the arm works as it’s throwing the ball. The throwing arm (in this case mostly as it needs more work), but also includes the use of the lead/glove arm. At least that’s my definition of it.

Didn’t I just say that the lower half in the first clip was fairly decent?

You can do what you like and focus on whatever area you want to first. But it has been my experience that if the arm action isn’t at least in a functional state, working on other things BEFORE arm action will only lengthen the process of correcting mechanical issues. I’m just trying to help him get from point A to B as quickly as possible.

When an efficient arm action is developed then the rest of the body is brought into play to support that arm action. It is then that you will start to see that “continuous seamless motion” that high level throwers have (rhythm/timing).

IMO


#15

I think this may be a good drill for singtalls son to try.

I would suggest to go through this iteration a few times, and then on the last handbrake - throw the ball.

The main focus should be on how the hands break and how the arms move to scap load. Especially the throwing arm. Do it slow and methodically at first, eventually speeding it up until you are moving as fast as you possibly can.

Video and analyze your results. Rinse…repeat…until throwing 90.8)

The main focus is arm action here, but since you are also moving out into footplant you may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone with this drill.


#16

A youngser’s physcial maturity has a lot to do with anything athletic. As is the case with your son, if you notice his proportions - he’s at that age where he’s all arms and legs (sort of speak). Soon enough he’ll start to fill-out, get stronger, and have a lot more definition to his movements.

The most important thing for him to focus on right now, is avoiding over use. Couple that with his family’s support during good times and not so good times. A healthy breakfast every single morning, focus on priorities of school work and keeping things simple on the field. In fact, that last remark - keeping things simple on the field, will really help him in the long run. So, while he’s pitching - don’t coach, let him work things out by himself. If you don’t, you’ll only add more pressure to his experience.

Your son looks as though he has some good prospect stuff. Keeping that “stuff” on track means being very pro-active in his support, in a positive way ALL THE TIME. Even when things are crashing down around him. So, find positive things to say to him on that loney ride home in the family car after a so-so game.

Best wishes with your baseball experience.

Coach B.


#17

thanks again everybody. we will work on the drill you mentioned 101mph.

i just got a radar gun today and we played around a little and did some tests. first he tested me. with my shoulder injury i still manage to throw 50mph. pretty good if i was 11 years old instead of 43. lol

when Nic throws to make sure it’s a strike he throws about 43mph average.

when he throws with a long stride and stays low, he stayed at 47mph.

when he exhales hard as he releases the ball he gets to 48mph.

not the fastest on the planet, but he is just a lanky 11 year old. he’s got plenty of room to fill out and get more speed on the ball.

for now, we will try to just have fun and work on one thing at a time.

thanks again everyone.


#18

I really have issues with the arm action, it’s up waaayyy early. This is a rhythm issue. Pitching is an art and the kid for now doesn’t look fluid. Do you read or follow Chris O’leary because it seems like you are taking the showing the ball to 3B to the extreme.

Your son is going to hurt his shoulder if he stays with that arm action because it’s putting the upper and lower parts of the body out of sync. If it’s available to you I would recommend bringing him to a pitching instructor.


#19

http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=101980#101980

check out the improvements.