Stats- Allowing Parents and Kids to see age 9-12

Agreed.

I’ll ask again. If you don’t believe stats should be used to help set lineups, what do you propose, choosing names out of a hat?

I’ve never had a problem accepting that almost all coaches know who their key hitters are, but I will never accept that without some kind of data, they can accurately assess much more than that.

IOW, there’s no trick to identifying Joe, Tom, and Bill as the key players. But the trick is, what do you do beyond that? Its very unlikely that all 3 will have the same skills at the same level, so its unlikely they’ll be completely interchangeable. All the data does is allow an accurate comparison in order to give the best chance of putting each player in the spot that best suits him.

Even if a coach doesn’t keep track of data with a piece of paper and pencil, he’s doing it somehow. Memory is the most usual, and that’s what shapes perceptions. All I’m saying is, there’s so many individual data points to try to remember for even 1 game let alone 5, 10, or more, memories can and do easily get “muddled” . What’s the dear of having evidence of one’s perceptions?

I coached the same group of kids from the age of 8 to 19. There were a few that fell out and a few new replacements but the team roster remained essentially the same. The first year 8,9 and 10 year olds, I had never coached in this league before. I basically played every kid in every position, it didn’t matter what their skill level was. My assistant coach came to me after the first few games and said, “Well, I’ve never seen it done this way before.”

I told him that my goal was to get each kid to come back next year and that means I am not sticking the same kid out in right field every game. We can make this enjoyable for everybody. They will be competing soon enough for positions. The batting line up was switched around too.

Eventually, I saw who were the athletic kids and who weren’t. I was never a big statistics guy. It was pretty much in my head. There is so much more to making an effective line up than stats. Focusing exclusively on stats can be counterproductive. That’s hard to accept if you are a statistics freak and I understand that completely. Just the way I did it. I see my number three hitter arrive at the field late and he looks like he got to bed at 3 in the morning…he might hit 6-9 that day. I don’t care what his stats are.

I have always keep stats, my take was to let them be aware and they would naturally compete. The league I grew up with as a kid used to post everyones stats…never was an issue and it did make for great competitions, nowadays…the MBA’s are in control and every aspect is sliced and counted.

I did it because it gave the kids a record of their time…outside of a 6" trophy and I’ve had many come back and thank me for it…the rest likely made the circular file as it went through the front door :wink:
I did coach by them but loosely…I’m a “seat-of-the-pants” guy…I could in many instances “feel” where the next inplay ball would go (Pitchers location that day and hitters composite profile/body language…and intuition)…so weirdly I’m on both sides of this street 8)

Well scorekeeper you are assuming that they know their back from the front when using the numerous stats that they collect. My contention is that most will misinterpret or spin the results to come up with conclusions that don’t really exist. Stats, tendencies and game time results in the right coaches hands are very effective but in the hands of the rest, a wash at the best.

[quote=“Dino”]I coached the same group of kids from the age of 8 to 19. There were a few that fell out and a few new replacements but the team roster remained essentially the same. The first year 8,9 and 10 year olds, I had never coached in this league before. I basically played every kid in every position, it didn’t matter what their skill level was. My assistant coach came to me after the first few games and said, “Well, I’ve never seen it done this way before.”

I told him that my goal was to get each kid to come back next year and that means I am not sticking the same kid out in right field every game. We can make this enjoyable for everybody. They will be competing soon enough for positions. The batting line up was switched around too. [/quote]

Personally, I believe the kids miss out on a lot by only having basically one coach “running the show. Its not that I don’t believe you or anyone else were capable, but I’m a big believer in the widest input possible in the pursuit of knowledge, and that everyone has something to offer.

Is it even at all possible that there’s more to it than athleticism, and that by looking at the numbers you might have seen that?

Here’s where I have my biggest problem with folks like yourself. Your assumption is that folks like me focus entirely on the numbers, and that’s not only not true, it’s a foolish assumption. I don’t now and have never advocated total reliance on stats! That would be just as foolish as not using stats at all. Instead, there’s always room for a combination of the “all in the head, gut feeling guys” and the “ stat heads”.

I’ll ask you the same question I asked Turn. If you don’t believe stats should be used to help set lineups, what do you propose, choosing names out of a hat? What you don’t realize is, the only difference between us is, your stats are kept in your head and are very likely tainted by your biases and incorrect percepts because you couldn’t possibly remember all data points accurately. While someone like myself constantly looks at the facts to make sure those biases and poor memory are tested and kept in check.

That’s the reality of it, but many are so dead set against using numbers, they won’t even try it to test their hypothesis.

All you did was be honest with them and give them an opportunity. Giving the players and the parents the respect of full disclosure goes a lot further than hiding things its likely will be found out anyway.

That’s all I was trying to say. The numbers are simply another tool, just like a batting tee, radar gun, video camera, DVD, or book. The main difference I see between the numbers and say a batting tee is, its pretty obvious how one uses a batting tee, but there are ways to use it that are much better than others. :wink:

That’s not the problem of the numbers! It’s a problem of ignorance. There’s no reason at all other than hardheadedness that would stop any coach with “normal” intelligence from learning how to interpret and use stats effectively.

You can argue that of course, but I will point out that if it were true high school, college and for that matter major league teams would change head coaches as often as possible. Consistency is valuable. Many of these kids have come to me for advice, help, and a reference letter among other things. I happened to disagree with your analysis.

Yes, of course. I could have been better at describing that. Trouble is, I never look at a person and think of numbers. That’s just not how my brain works.

Now c’mon…you have to agree that some people are just not geared toward statistics. And that those that are…sometimes can’t see past the numbers because I think you will agree also that there is a certain dogmatic reliance on statistics especially when a person spends the time to make sure they accurately reflect the situation. And wouldn’t you make that assumption if a person’s screen name is “scorekeeper” or “stats4gnats”?

Some day, I hope to be as discerning and wise as you. Until then, I’ll just have to be satisfied with being the dumb ass that I am.

One of the things that has always set Americans apart…one of the things that makes us exceptional, is that we can improvise. On paper for example the German Army was the most powerful and best ‘trained" army on earth at the beginning of the 2nd World War. They were sharp, they were precise, went by the book, stayed with the plan. This was impressive until the shooting started…even then against the unimaginative…it was devestating…until it ran into Americans…why…well you could kill the leader…and they kept on thinking…they strategized and over-came. This is a huge advantage…it is one of the things that makes us great…Well to bring this back to the point…We as a people reject being controlled by numbers…it is a visceral…internal thing…we revere the craftsman who can eyeball a 20’ straight line with no rule…the instinctive leader and so SK, though you’ll always find folks like me who have unobtrusively incorporated the tool (Believe me I’ve taken a bunch of ridicule as a coach who kept my own book…I didn’t give a crap…I was there for the kids :wink: ) and don’t bristle at increased control necessarily (Though I think in business the MBA control cycle is losing impetus).
I’d be careful assessing value of a person by there acceptance OR rejection…as I all too often say…more than one way to raise up a…player/pitcher/kid 8)

Well that is where we disagree…well maybe we don’t, quoting the word normal might infer that “most” coaches don’t have “normal” intelligence…we may have found a common ground! Just being crass tonight.

When I talk about all the parents keeping score I am referring to those score keeping apps on the phones and tablets. Its seems everyone in the stands is using one app or another.

I still think its not right to allow 11u kids to see each others stats, or allow the parents to view the info for that matter, but as someone once said “The most valuable commodity in the future will be privacy.”

Another good thing about us Americans…we can have different feelings about a subject and not shoot the next guy between the ears.

I can see your point entirely…people can take stuff and use it for selfish and prejuditial things…11 yr olds should be having fun and enjoying the game, it doesn’t have to be bad, nor good…depends on the use of the tool as to it’s worthiness.

Well, I can’t speak with precision as to the capability of all people all over the world, but I seriously doubt that only Americans have the ability to improvise. That’s like saying no one else in the world has ever had an original thought or invented anything.

My point is, and always has been, no matter what anyone says, as a baseball coach they use past performances to make judgments and decisions. I only say that using documented proof of performance is a more valid way of ascertaining the truth than relying on memory.

I’d never discount anyone by their unwillingness to made decisions based on facts, other than that I’d rely a great deal more on someone who does than doesn’t.

By saying that it is something Americans are particularly good at?
Nonononono no SK…see the one has nothing to do with the other…I didn’t say what you posited or even inferred it…I was alluding to why it is folks seem to recoil at the idea of being totally numbers driven, trying to help you understand from another perspective is all.

Fair enough 8)

There have been many thoughtful presentations done as to how it was that we were so successful and have been so successful at the waging of war, looking into it may explain what I was getting across to you.

Is there any proof Americans are any better at improvisation than anyone else? I’m as proud an American as there is, but I suspect you could go to any country and find people equally proud of their county.

Your ASSUMPTION is that my position is to be totally numbers driven, and nothing could be further from the truth. If other misinterpret my position, I can’t be blamed any more than I’d characterize them as being unable to incorporate numbers into their philosophy.

Do you suppose the waging of war by our military and those in government who control that military was done on gut instinct or by many people studying history and reams of data? :wink:

Why do I let myself get caught up in one-way arguments?

Sure there is…way plenty…whole bunches…Seek and ye shall find.

Nice try…but no, you are the one who seems mystified when folks don’t accept the position you extend yourself as (You failed to note I too kept score and didn’t speak adversely about it), I offered a perspective to the reasons for that behavior, no judgement either way, I’m just trying to make sense of it and offered another perspective.

Yep…another one of those situations…don’t you suppose that ALL them other folks “study” too…I didn’t make up that statement I made, we’ve never been defeated in war…how do you do that? The Russians were desperate to understand why, when I was in the military and I know it still happens now…armies all come to us to find out how…it’s been identified many times by many experts…can’t manufacture what we have…unless they start their own country…and base it the way we did ours.
You can deny that…but then you’d be denying the numbers :wink: :lol:

See…thats part of the brain they take away when you got your marriage license :shock: They only “called” it a blood test :roll:

:rolllaugh: