Sometimes I just don't get it

My son’s team played a buddy of mine’s team tonight and I found out some things that really made me a bit angry. My buddy is very competitive and likes to win, but I did not know it was quite this bad. He has two kids that are both 12 years old. We play 2 games a week, one during the week and one on Saturday. I was talking to a mom tonight who’s son is usually one of the pitchers on the team. She told me her son is not pitching anymore for at least 2 weeks due to strained or pulled muscles in his shoulder. I asked how this happened, and she told me my buddy only has two pitchers on the team and they each pitch 1/2 game each. So, each of the two kids is pitching 6 to 7 innings a week with usually no more than about 3 days rest. I also found out the other kid that pitches had to pull himself out of the game because his arm hurt so bad. What the hell is wrong with people. He is going to ruin two 12 year old kids arms for the sake of winning? I really liked the guy and thought he would be a good coach for my kid, now I am kinda glad my kid is not with him. I don’t know the whole story, so I hope I am wrong.

Now he has one little Indian . . .

Now he has none. :cry:

At youth age, give every kid a chance.

It sounds like this is rec league. If so, I’d consider speaking to a board member (or suggesting one of the impacted kids’ parents do it).

I have heard that many boards are closed clubs where that will have little impact, but some will want to do the right thing. I joined my son’s league’s board this year to help out with some initiatives, and can honestly say that if someone brought a complaint of overuse, it would be taken very seriously and two strikes would almost certainly land the manager on the bleachers for the rest of the season.

Some daddy-coaches are great. Some are the worst things to ever happen to youth sports. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t understand parents that don’t even try to learn enough about the game to know when their own kids are being endangered or aren’t willing to speak up and do something about it.

One point though, it’s not innings that matter, it’s pitch count. A kid can pitch 3 innings in 35 pitches and probably be fine on 2 or 3 days rest.

So each kid is pitching 3-4 inning outings on 3-4 days of rest?

Does that really sound abusive?

Well that’s really the question.

According to littleleague.org:

[quote]If a player pitches 36 - 50 pitches in a day, two (2) calendar days of rest must be observed.

If a player pitches 51 - 65 pitches in a day, three (3) calendar days of rest must be observed.[/quote]

If they regularly need more than 65 pitches to finish 3 innings, that’s a different issue.

This is a coach that doesn’t really want to coach, he just wants the feeling he is missing from not being able to play himself. Don’t get into discussions about it with him…you won’t change his mind, hopefully the other parents on the team will figure it out and get their kids somewhere else.

Sorry but I’m not getting the outrage.
These are 12 year olds throwing 3 innings twice a week with an average of 3 days rest in between. Are they throwing 60 - 65 pitches an outing?

If the pitchers in question are having arm issues, maybe it’s from mechanical flaws.

It can be easy to over use and stay within the rules, especially with a long inning or two. As a parent you control the situation, dictate the terms and get him out of the game for sure if his arms hurting and coach won’t pull. Generally all it takes is getting coaches attention and quietly telling him enough for the day. If he takes it out on your son and doesnt pitch him for the year at least his arm is good for the next season. Unfortunately some kids parents are afraid to speak up for fear of retribution or don’t know any better.

[quote=“bbrages”]So each kid is pitching 3-4 inning outings on 3-4 days of rest?

Does that really sound abusive?[/quote]

Well, I don’t know many “leagues” that play on Sunday, if that’s true with this one, the most they could possibly get is 3 days of rest.

As for abusive, that’s a different issue. There’s a lot more to it than abuse. Overuse is also a distinct possibility, especially at lower levels where the players are so immature both mentally and physically. But as an example, here’s what I’ve seen in the last 2 weeks from pitchers at the LL Majors level, in the 1st 3 innings of 2 games.

P1-58
P2-41
P3-39
P4-71

Whether or not it would be either abusive or a case of overuse for any of those pitchers to do the same thing on 3 day’s rest is really beside the point of the OP. There’s just no reason that makes good common sense, other than someone’s drive to win, to have that even be an option. With likely 12 kids on the team, why not just let 2 others throw, then there’s no question at all? What could be the worst that could happen? The team loses 2 12U games?

[quote=“SouthpawDad”]It sounds like this is rec league. If so, I’d consider speaking to a board member (or suggesting one of the impacted kids’ parents do it).

I have heard that many boards are closed clubs where that will have little impact, but some will want to do the right thing. I joined my son’s league’s board this year to help out with some initiatives, and can honestly say that if someone brought a complaint of overuse, it would be taken very seriously and two strikes would almost certainly land the manager on the bleachers for the rest of the season.

Some daddy-coaches are great. Some are the worst things to ever happen to youth sports. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t understand parents that don’t even try to learn enough about the game to know when their own kids are being endangered or aren’t willing to speak up and do something about it.

One point though, it’s not innings that matter, it’s pitch count. A kid can pitch 3 innings in 35 pitches and probably be fine on 2 or 3 days rest.[/quote]

I don’t know about the pitch count. One of the kids is a big 12yo, and I heard he is pretty dominating, so his pitch count might have been a bit lower. Either way, if a 12yo kid is complaining about arm pain, my thought would be that he is being used too much. My buddy is going to lose both of them next year, and have no pitchers at all.

Sorry for the delay in response, have not been on the computer much.

Also, I just found my buddy is part of the board. And there is a whole lot of other stuff going on with this league, so I am just going to stay out of it. My son’s coach has 4 pitchers and uses them all, so nobody is overtaxed, and I am very appreciative of that.

This kids parents are just very out there. His mother came up to me before our game and told me we had a chance because her son was not pitching. Really? I guess your son is that good. then. LOL. The kids parents are the ones partly to blame as well.

[quote=“bbrages”]So each kid is pitching 3-4 inning outings on 3-4 days of rest?

Does that really sound abusive?[/quote]

No, each kid is pitching a half a game twice a week. So each kid is pitching between 6 and 7 innings a week. To me, that is way too much. But, I am not a coach, just a parent who has played enough to know, or at least have an opinion on, how much a 12 year old should be pitching.

[quote=“Turn 22”]Sorry but I’m not getting the outrage.
These are 12 year olds throwing 3 innings twice a week with an average of 3 days rest in between. Are they throwing 60 - 65 pitches an outing?

If the pitchers in question are having arm issues, maybe it’s from mechanical flaws.[/quote]

I guess I did not explain it well enough. Each of these 2 kids are pitching 3 to 4 innings per game, two games per week. That is 6 to 7 innings per week. And both are complaining of sore arms. They could be throwing 60 pitches per game, I don’t know. But to me, anything more than 4 innings per week is overuse.

My son threw 3 innings the other day, about 60 pitches (it was a rough outting for him), and his coach did not pitch him again that week. To me, 60 to 65 a week is more than enough.

And I did not mention that each of these two kids throws not only fastballs but curve balls as well. So I don’t know what the ratio of pitches is, but maybe it is not the number of pitches, but the number of breaking pitches. Just thought I would throw that out there as well.

To me, a 12 yo has alot of bigger games than a rec league to play. Why ruin him now just to win a stupid game? Oh well, maybe I am way out of line. Would not be the first time.

Couldn’t have said it better. Baseball is a team sport, and a team needs everyone doing its part to be it’s best. We played a LL tournament this weekend. On the 2nd game, our coach wanted to bring my son in to pitch the 5th and 6th to give our boys a chance to come back and win the game. He pitched the full 85 pitches earlier in the week and this was his fourth day of rest. LL rules were that pitch count started anew for the tournament, so theoretically a kid could pitch full 85 on Friday in regular league game and come back and pitch another 85 on the weekend - and I’m sure this happened somewhere as it took four games to win the tournament. Anyways, I rejected the coaches inquiry. The other team scored a few more runs and we lost by a run, ending the tournament for us. My son wanted to pitch. He could’ve gone 20 pitches on Saturday and then another 85 on Sunday and be within LL rules. Instead, he rode his bike and played outdoors on Sunday instead of winning a LL tournament.

Yeah, the team can lose a game. And a week later, nobody will remember the game.