Side View of the Same 13yr old


#1

:lol:

Side View of the same 13yr old. This was taken about a month ago.

Opinions?


#2

he could probably stride a little longer … though I liked the lead stride leg action better on this one than the other one … looks to me like he might be able to keep his chest area back over the rubber a little loger for more power … anyone agree? disagree?


#3

baseballbum
This kid has mostly excellent mechanics. Before I get to the things for improvement, just let me say that I really like the fact that he’s getting the throwing arm into full external rotation (forearm laid back horizontally at the right time) and I really like how he is thrusting his chest forward as the elbow is coming through with the rotation of the shoulders.

Two things I’d like to mention as improvement areas are:

  1. His arm action could use work with respect to timing. The throwing hand goes WAY up there and h…a…n…g…s there, waiting for the body to catch up. It hangs there for probably 4 frames. All of the kinetic energy of the wind up to get there gets dissipated while it just sits up there. The arm action has basically stopped and must then re-start once the shoulders and elbow begin their move.

  2. After the nice chest thrust/arching action that I mentioned above, that’s it. The torso forward flexion has the brakes put on it. He should continue this nice upper body motion and add the flex forward past release.


#4

Overall pretty good.

His head takes quite a dip from his starting stance to his release point so I’d want him to start with the knees bent a bit more to minimize this head movement.

Also, seems to be a “stay back” type of pitcher meaning that his hips don’t really get going until after his knee lift has peaked. I’d want him to try to get the hips going a little sooner (i.e. at or right before the knee lift peaks) without sacrificing the height of the knee lift. This will make him build up a little bit more momentum and get him over his front foot a bit more at release thus moving his release point closer to the target. (Edit: In hindsight, I think I’m talking about the same issue DM brought up in his item #2.)


#5

ROGER … I’, trying to understand this… how can he get his hips going forward until he brings the knee up? You can’t lift the leg and go forward at the same time. Your supposed to bring the knee straight up to the balance position … am I missing your point?

DM59, regarding his arm action and the arm hanging there… how should he fix that? SHould he bring the arm down low more when it goes back, a la Steve Carlton-like?

(I’m not the dad who posted this, but there’s a lot to learn over video discussion … usually I’m just analyzing video on my own … this is great btw)


#6

[quote=“andrew.ra.”]… how can he get his hips going forward until he brings the knee up? You can’t lift the leg and go forward at the same time.[/quote]Sure you can. I was just looking at a video clip of Nolan Ryan from the closed side (1st base on a RHP) and he does just that. Not much before, mind you, but before.

[quote=“andrew.ra.”]Your supposed to bring the knee straight up to the balance position…[/quote]That doesn’t preclude the possibility of moving the hips. I think someone has told you to actually pause in the balance position, which is not what most recommend these days.

[quote=“andrew.ra.”]…regarding his arm action and the arm hanging there… how should he fix that? SHould he bring the arm down low more when it goes back, a la Steve Carlton-like?[/quote]Good question. Not so easy an answer. He’ll need to experiment. As Paul Nyman continually preaches, it’s all about trial and error. He needs to try breaking the hands later, moving the centre of gravity out to landing quicker, combinations of these 2, or maybe something else. Like I said, experiment. Another thing is just his arm action mechanics. Going that high isn’t necessary and just feeds into the timing problem. He and his dad should study pro pitchers’ arm action and read some posts here about it in order to understand the nuances. Then experiment, with video to see how the timing is progressing.


#7

This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

First, it doesn’t seem to be hurting him. Second, studies suggest that this reduces the strain on the shoulder. Third, there are some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia) who do this (and who coincidentally or not are less prone to injury).

While Tom House would say that bending forward is a good thing because it lets you release the ball closer to the plate, others (e.g. Bob Shaw) would say that bending forward is a bad thing because it lowers the release point and reduces the ability of the shoulders to rotate.

Based on what I see in the analyses I have done, I believe that finishing leaning forward 45 degrees as this pitcher does is probably a good compromise (and is also what long-termers like Ryan and Clemens do). Yes, Mark Prior finishes leaning much farther forward, but he also has significant injury problems (which could be related in part to how far he leans forward).


#8

You most certainly can get the hips going while the knee is still lifting. It’s just a matter of pushing the hips out toward the target. The pivot foot will push against the ground/rubber. If you do this, you will get the feeling you’re going to fall down. But what will happen is your stride leg will stride faster to catch you. Assuming you don’t shorten your knee lift, you’ll end up with a nice long stride. It will take lots of reps to feel comfortable with this but it’s worth it.

By the way, your statement about bringing the knee straight up to the balance position has two problems. First, not all pitchers bring their knees straight up. This tends to vary with arm slot. Side-arm throwers will take their knees back as they wind up. Other pitchers will take their knee to the back shoulder. Some will take it straight up. It’s really a comfort thing.

The second problem is the balance point issue. Coming to the balance position is really old conventional wisdom that is outdated. If you think about it, it really doesn’t make sense to come to a pause part way through the delivery and then try to get going again. If you watch the elite pitchers, they get going and keep going. None of this “stopping at the top”, “staying back”, etc.


#9

I think the solution is getting the hips going sooner which will move the center of gravity out to landing quicker. Any time a pitcher has time to let his arm “hang around” or to sweep his glove like he’s swimming, or stop at the top, etc. then he has too much time on his hands (is that a pun?). The answer is to get to foot strike quicker.


#10

While Tom House would say that bending forward is a good thing because it lets you release the ball closer to the plate, others (e.g. Bob Shaw) would say that bending forward is a bad thing because it lowers the release point and reduces the ability of the shoulders to rotate.[/quote]

Actually, Tom House is saying you need to get stacked (upright spine), track forward (take the upright spine to the target), and rotate around an upright spine. He also says that prior to the arm laying back in external rotation the lower back will be arched in an isometric load. Right before the arm snaps forward, the back releases and bends forward. Note that this occurs after the shoulders have started to rotate since the elbow has led the arm to the squared-up position when the arm snaps forward into release.


#11

This is an effect of power, not the cause.

It happens automatically and means that he is rapidly rotating his shoulders.


#12

Reverse-rotating the hips (as this pitcher does) can increase velocity because it can increase the force with which the shoulders are pulled around.


#13

This leaning forward doesn’t have to happen to the degree that it does with Mark Prior. Rather, it is encouraged by things like the towel drill (which I’m not a big fan of).


#14

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]This (the arm hanging at the top) is a good thing, not a bad thing.[/quote]Hogwash!!!

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]…studies suggest that this reduces the strain on the shoulder. [/quote]Which studies and how does that work? You’ve just lost any contribution of the windup. Why don’t we then just tell kids to put their arm up there before doing anything and leave it there until they’re ready to throw? There should be no pauses in the delivery, from arm action to torso loading and unloading, etc. Pause and you lose the energy previously built up. With arm action, once the ball breaks from the glove, you’re throwing the ball. Keep it moving with no pauses. This is why the arm action that employs a horizontal W, or near that, action is so prevalent. It facilitates a smooth, continuous motion from ball break to release and beyond. Stop and you have to start all over again!!!

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]…there are some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia) who do this (and who coincidentally or not are less prone to injury).[/quote]There are major leaguers who counter rotate to an extreme, like Nomo, but should we assume that this is why he can throw and that it is therefore what we should teach?

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]While Tom House would say that bending forward is a good thing because it lets you release the ball closer to the plate, others (e.g. Bob Shaw) would say that bending forward is a bad thing because it lowers the release point and reduces the ability of the shoulders to rotate.[/quote]I said nothing about releasing the ball closer to the plate in relation to my comments about forward trunk flexion. I don’t subscribe to that thinking anyway.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]Based on what I see in the analyses I have done, I believe that finishing leaning forward 45 degrees as this pitcher does is probably a good compromise (and is also what long-termers like Ryan and Clemens do). [/quote]You’re not seriously saying that Ryan and Clemens finish on a 45 deg. angle. Absolutely, 100% wrong. They do pretty much exactly what Roger described. The chest thrusting out and the back arching “loads” the torso which then “unloads”. Discounting this action is ludicrous!! NOT doing this takes away a key component of the delivery and will only serve to make the arm take on more of the burden.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]This (full external rotation of the humerus) is an effect of power, not the cause.[/quote]Yes, it is a result of the rotation of the shoulders and the forward motion of the torso Chris, but that doesn’t mean that it does not contribute to power production. You apparently completely discount, or just don’t understand, the significant role of elastic energy in this action. Now, you can speak all you want about this being stressful on the rotator cuff and you’d be right but you cannot convince me that it doesn’t play a part in power production. More horse hockey Chris.


#15

[quote=“dm59”][quote=“Chris O’Leary”]This (the arm hanging at the top) is a good thing, not a bad thing.[/quote]Hogwash!!!

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]…studies suggest that this reduces the strain on the shoulder. [/quote]Which studies and how does that work? You’ve just lost any contribution of the windup. Why don’t we then just tell kids to put their arm up there before doing anything and leave it there until they’re ready to throw? There should be no pauses in the delivery, from arm action to torso loading and unloading, etc. Pause and you lose the energy previously built up. With arm action, once the ball breaks from the glove, you’re throwing the ball. Keep it moving with no pauses. This is why the arm action that employs a horizontal W, or near that, action is so prevalent. It facilitates a smooth, continuous motion from ball break to release and beyond. Stop and you have to start all over again!!!

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]…there are some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia) who do this (and who coincidentally or not are less prone to injury).[/quote]There are major leaguers who counter rotate to an extreme, like Nomo, but should we assume that this is why he can throw and that it is therefore what we should teach?

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]While Tom House would say that bending forward is a good thing because it lets you release the ball closer to the plate, others (e.g. Bob Shaw) would say that bending forward is a bad thing because it lowers the release point and reduces the ability of the shoulders to rotate.[/quote]I said nothing about releasing the ball closer to the plate in relation to my comments about forward trunk flexion. I don’t subscribe to that thinking anyway.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]Based on what I see in the analyses I have done, I believe that finishing leaning forward 45 degrees as this pitcher does is probably a good compromise (and is also what long-termers like Ryan and Clemens do). [/quote]You’re not seriously saying that Ryan and Clemens finish on a 45 deg. angle. Absolutely, 100% wrong. They do pretty much exactly what Roger described. The chest thrusting out and the back arching “loads” the torso which then “unloads”. Discounting this action is ludicrous!! NOT doing this takes away a key component of the delivery and will only serve to make the arm take on more of the burden.

D.M. Its tuff aint it. Put bullet in mouth and bite down hard while gritting teeth!!!


#16

In their paper “Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers” by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement…

“In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain.”

It’s unfortunate that the authors of this study use the term “flaw” to characterize what is actually just a difference (they call it a flaw because it differs from their model of ideal mechanics, not because it causes any preformance problems).

I give you Freddy Garcia as proof that your concept of the source of power in a throw has some holes in it. Instead, I focus on the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder as the primary source of power.


#17

They do not do it to the degree that Mark Prior does, which I believes demonstrates that Mark Prior leans forward excessively.


#18

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”] Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain.[/quote]I’m not referring to a “long arm swing”. How would Fleisig and co. define it? How do you define it? What I’m referring to on this young pitcher is how he hangs there, not so much that he goes that high, although I believe it’s not necessary. The stoppage of movement of the arm action is what I’m saying is causing him to “start over again”.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]I give you Freddy Garcia as proof that your concept of the source of power in a throw has some holes in it. Instead, I focus on the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder as the primary source of power.[/quote]Chris. Please find a quote by me that says that rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulders are not significant in power production. Now, go to what I actually have been saying, which is that you are discounting elastic energy as A source of power, not THE ONLY source of power.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]They do not do it (lean forward) to the degree that Mark Prior does, which I believes demonstrates that Mark Prior leans forward excessively.[/quote]Again, you misdirect my comments. I’m not recommending that a pitcher “lean forwards” a la Mark Prior. I am saying that this pitcher does not make use of every tool in the toolbox. Specifically, he has very little unloading of the trunk. Now, please don’t twist this back to “leaning forward” toward the plate in an excessive manner. It’s a dynamic combination between the spinal tilt forward, unloading of the previously loaded torso (assisted by the arch in the spine) and the rotation of the shoulders. We’re not talking about 2 dimensional vectors, or planar motion, which leaning forward toward the plate conjures up. Yes, that’s there, to some degree. Combine that with the other 2 I mention and you have a more complex, 3 dimensional motion to describe. Taking my comments and reducing them to “leaning forward” is a gross oversimplification.