Shutting Down


#1

My son just concluded his L.L. / All Star season with some Sunday TB thrown in there for awhile. Both he and me(dad) want him to shut down and rest his arm for the summer plus he wishes to just be a kid for awhile which is fine with us.

My question is: What kind of throwing and how often should he toss to keep his arm from completely turning to mush in the “offseason”?We plan to be down for the rest of the summer. He is 11.

Thanks in advance.

Stitch


#2

Its funny i was just about to post basically the exact same post :slight_smile:

My lil guy (10 yrs old) just concluded his season, and we are shutting down all baseball activities for a month or so, and all baseball game playing until probably next spring. After playing rec ball and travel ball all spring, and then LL All Stars from the end of May until yesterday, its time for a break.

I know we wont touch a ball or bat for a month or 6 weeks, and after that we will just play it by ear. He is going to play soccer this fall instead of fall baseball, so i dont want to completely pack up until next Feb, but mostly what i want to work with him is his defense at third and first. When money permits, i may try to get him a pitching lesson or two, just to hammer out some stuff. But i guess that if im going to err, its going to be on the side of not enough baseball, instead of too much.


#3

Consider ASMI’s advice on periodization (item #2) which you can see here
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm
.


#4

Same thing here. My son and I did an end-of-season video session in the yard last night to have a record of where he was at the end of the season. He plans on playing fall soccer and then basketball. Maybe he’ll start throwing again in November.


#5

:allgood:


#6

My son followed the ASMI guidelines of periodization and has been able to pitch from 9 years of age to his present age of approaching 19 1/2 without significant arm issues. The handbook cost me $10 originally. I’d say it was a fine investment.


#7

OK so anyway, my kids team lost the SC LL Minors state championship game, the winner of which gets an invitation to a regional “Tournament of Champions” in Huntington WV. So the team that won declines the invitation, and BLAM! we get the invite. I guess the tournament directors are more concerned with the money than with the whole “champions” thing. :smiley: So i guess shutting down gets delayed for a couple of more weeks.


#8

As Roger’s link states (“No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year”), the recent medical literature recommends complete shut down for a few months each year.

I would also strongly suggest that you read “Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers”, written by several medical doctors including James R. Andrews, MD (Brett Favre’s orthopedic surgeon). Here is a link to the article:

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Tools/baseball/articles/Prevention%20of%20Arm%20Injury%20in%20Youth%20Baseball%20Pitchers.pdf

Among the many startling findings in the article is this:

“Multivariate analysis identified the most significant risk factors for high school and college pitcher injury and need for surgery as: an increased risk of 500% for pitching greater than 8 months per year … Recommendations for youth pitchers: … For at least three months a year, a pitcher should not play any baseball or perform throwing drills. In addition, any overhead activity (football quarterback, competitive swimming, javelin throwing) should be avoided during that period of time.


#9

Congratulations! Another week before summer vacation begins.

My son’s team lost their District Championship today. Quite a ride for the young boys. It’s quite an accomplishment for your son’s team to make it to the State’s Championship game.


#10

Congratulations! Another week before summer vacation begins.

My son’s team lost their District Championship today. Quite a ride for the young boys. It’s quite an accomplishment for your son’s team to make it to the State’s Championship game.[/quote]

Getting there in SC isnt quite the same as in California. Our district tournament had 6 teams in it, and 3 were from our league. We played 3 all star games in our district, won them all, played 4 pool games in the states, won them all, won a semifinal game, and then lost the final. So all in all we played 8 games to get to the final game. You guys probably play that many games to get out of districts. :slight_smile:


#11

From:
“Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers”, written by several medical doctors including James R. Andrews, MD (Brett Favre’s orthopedic surgeon).

A factor of more than seven times more significant than pitching greater than 8 months per year. And I take that to mean that you can follow all the other hard number guidelines to the T, and it won’t matter if you let him pitch fatigued. There are no magic numbers, just suggestions and recommendations.


#12

A rational person does not engage in activity known to increase risk of injury 500% (pitching more than 8 months per year) simply because a separate activity increases risk of injury 3600% (regularly pitching despite arm fatigue).


#13

littlelefty said,

From:
“Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers”, written by several medical doctors including James R. Andrews, MD (Brett Favre’s orthopedic surgeon).

Does a rational person engage in activity known to increase risk of injury 400% (pitching greater than 80 pitches per game) or 250% (pitching a fastball greater than 85 mph)?


#14

The first thing and the most important thing Dr. Andrews talks about is fatigue. He talks about pitch count and seasonal limits and multiple teams and periodization as they relate to fatigue. “Whatever produces fatigue, is your problem.” The rules according to Dr. Andrews are “unfortunate” and he acknowledges that these rules only “half way control it.” These rules are necessary because those who are making decisions on fatigue are not always looking out for the best interest of the player or are ignorant of the signs of fatigue.

There are youth athletes who will still get injured abiding by all the rules and there are youth athletes that can play multiple sports (quarterback a team in the fall and pitch for a team in the spring without injury.) Recomendations, guidelines, suggestions…not hard numbers.

Avoid fatigue…


#15

Don’t distort Dr. Andrews’ video.

Dr. Andrews does not say “the rules” are “unfortunate” and only “half way control it.” He says “PITCH COUNTS” are “unfortunate” and only “half way control it.”

This is why in the video Dr. Andrews further elaborates that BEYOND PITCH COUNTS there are OTHER RISK FACTORS such as PLAYING REAR ROUND BASEBALL that CAUSE FATIGUE. Here are Dr. Andrews’ own words from the video (at 2:27 - 3:04) (conveniently omitted from your post):

“PITCH COUNTS ARE IMPORTANT FOR PREVENTION OF FATIGUE. BUT IT’S NOT JUST PITCH COUNTS. IT’S PLAYING YEAR ROUND BASEBALL. THAT’S THE NUMBER ONE RISK FACTOR RELATED TO FATIGUE. WE THINK THAT KIDS SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST TWO TO THREE MONTHS OFF EACH YEAR WHERE THEY’RE NOT THROWING COMPETITIVELY OR NOT THROWING AT ALL.

LOL.

Thanks for the Dr. Andrews video confirming Dr. Andrews’ medical article recommending that “For at least three months a year, a pitcher should not play any baseball or perform throwing drills. In addition, any overhead activity (football quarterback, competitive swimming, javelin throwing) should be avoided during that period of time.” - http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Tools/baseball/articles/Prevention%20of%20Arm%20Injury%20in%20Youth%20Baseball%20Pitchers.pdf

Thanks again!

Fortunately my son is still young - 8 - and will be following this medical advice!


#16

Are you now the Distortion Police?

I simply stated a difference of opinion on the focus of what was said without quoting the entire video interview in the printed word. Much as you focused on year round baseball by excerpting those related quotes from the msstate article.

[quote]The first question asked was:

Q: What should we focus on?..I keep hearing and I get asked all the time with regards to children or boys in particular who play baseball … curveballs, pitch counts, number of innings; where’s this…where do the studies take us now?

Dr. Andrews: The number one risk factor is fatigue. Whatever produces fatigue is your problem. In our research at Birmingham at ASMI, we found out that if a kid was throwing in that age group, the young age group, if he was throwing a baseball with fatigue; he has a 36 to 1 times that he’ll injure his shoulder or elbow.

The follow up:

Q: I’m sure there are guidelines, how do you know if a person is fatigued and do people fatigue at different times?

Dr. Andrews: Oh of course they do. That’s the very thing to determine. That’s why you have to have some rules. That’s why pitch count, unfortunately, is one way to half way control it. But to pick up fatigue in a young kid, by an amateur coach is very difficult. Most of the time the young kid is not going to tell you that they are fatigued. Can you throw? Yeah Coach give me the ball. They may go home and tell their mother though that their shoulder and elbow is sore. And then that’s the only person they tell it to.[/quote]

The rest of the discussion involves detection of fatigue by observing the pitcher, why pitch counts are useful to know for detection of fatigue and how year round baseball and participation in multiple leagues are risk factors. The video is posted for all to listen to.

littlelefty said,

Dr. Andrews is concerned about the health of arms…your son and mine. He recommends a course of action that is most likely to prevent injury from fatigue. The rules have evolved because amateur coaches don’t have your son’s arm in mind when they are trying to win games. Sooner or later, your son if he keeps playing baseball will be coached by many of these amateur coaches. He will take the ball to the mound when he is fatigued. Rule or no rule. You can eliminate year round baseball from the equation and your son can still pitch fatigued…how about 50 pitches in one inning, for example? How about that dodgeball game at school just before he pitched that afternoon?

You can’t rely on the rules…you have to go beyond that. Simplifying it to the rules does no justice to the issue.

Southcarolina…had decided it was time to shut his kid down. Then this happens:

Only southcarolina knows if his son’s arm is healthy enough to continue. Don’t expect a coach to know. Don’t expect the rules to protect him. Don’t think that if you just take two or three months off from throwing completely that you are in the clear. What about conditioning, RTC exercises? And what about the memories of competition? How do you place a value on that?


#17

[quote=“Dino”][quote]The first question asked was:

Q: What should we focus on?..I keep hearing and I get asked all the time with regards to children or boys in particular who play baseball … curveballs, pitch counts, number of innings; where’s this…where do the studies take us now?

Dr. Andrews: The number one risk factor is fatigue. Whatever produces fatigue is your problem. In our research at Birmingham at ASMI, we found out that if a kid was throwing in that age group, the young age group, if he was throwing a baseball with fatigue; he has a 36 to 1 times that he’ll injure his shoulder or elbow.

The follow up:

Q: I’m sure there are guidelines, how do you know if a person is fatigued and do people fatigue at different times?

Dr. Andrews: Oh of course they do. That’s the very thing to determine. That’s why you have to have some rules. That’s why pitch count, unfortunately, is one way to half way control it. But to pick up fatigue in a young kid, by an amateur coach is very difficult. Most of the time the young kid is not going to tell you that they are fatigued. Can you throw? Yeah Coach give me the ball. They may go home and tell their mother though that their shoulder and elbow is sore. And then that’s the only person they tell it to.

[b]You omitted the follow up to that (at 2:27 - 3:04):

Q: Are there general guidelines beyond pitch counts to not guarantee but help ensure as much success and health as you can?

A: (Dr. Andrews) What you need to do is recognize the risk factors. Number one, PITCH COUNTS ARE IMPORTANT FOR PREVENTION OF FATIGUE. BUT IT’S NOT JUST PITCH COUNTS. IT’S PLAYING YEAR ROUND BASEBALL. THAT’S THE NUMBER ONE RISK FACTOR RELATED TO FATIGUE. WE THINK THAT KIDS SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST TWO TO THREE MONTHS OFF EACH YEAR WHERE THEY’RE NOT THROWING COMPETITIVELY OR NOT THROWING AT ALL."[/b][/quote]

Wow. How can any rational person keep ignoring that?


#18

[quote]You can’t rely on the rules…you have to go beyond that. Simplifying it to the rules does no justice to the issue.
Only southcarolina knows if his son’s arm is healthy enough to continue. Don’t expect a coach to know. Don’t expect the rules to protect him. Don’t think that if you just take two or three months off from throwing completely that you are in the clear[/quote]

Lefty I don’t think your point ignored…I think it amplifyed.
Dino hasn’t said “not” to follow Dr Andrews advice, I think he’s bolstered your comments with some great insights (Remember he predicated everything by saying his boy followed NPA guidelines and has experienced great results).
An example of how this is something to consider is this; Say a 13 or 12 yr old is participating in a travel squad and that kid ends up pitching crazy amounts of innings (Stuff like back to back games on Saturday and then coming back and pitching on Sunday…which to my dismay happens way too much) and then cuts it off for those 3 months…yes the months off will be assistive but the extrordinary amount of innings before then may have made the rest a moot point and turned it from active rest to recovery and rehab…two very different aspects of down time.


#19

jd,

Dino does not intend to confirm what I write, but to pick a fight. This happens every time I comment here and the reason I hardly post here anymore and why I won’t post my 8 year old son’s videos here (as much as I would like to, no way in hell). Allow me.

Here, the only issue raised by the original post is shutting a young pitcher down for the summer.

Accordingly, I posted a link to Dr. Andrews’ article and quoted the part that pertains to the dangers of year round pitching and the need to rest three months each year.

Predictably, Dino responded to my post not by addressing the dangers of year round pitching but by saying, in effect, “Yeah, but, SOMETHING ELSE has a higher risk factor!”

Specifically, Dino quoted the part of the article that deals with general arm fatigue (“When regularly pitching despite arm fatigue, the risk for injury requiring surgery increased 3600%”) and then intoned that this is “a factor of more than seven times more significant than pitching greater than 8 months per year.”

The implication by Dino is that year round pitching is not so big a deal because fatigue has a higher risk factor.

This is a dangerous message, wrong, and sloppy thinking: (1) the medically established 500% increase in risk of injury from pitching more than 8 months per year is a reality that is not diminished simply because something else (“fatigue”) causes a 3600% increase in risk of injury; and (2) “fatigue” is a broad term that includes many factors, only one of which is pitching more than 8 months per year, so the two can’t legitimately be compared.


#20

I don’t know, his points certainly have validity. I think the both of you are on the same side here. Remember he did predicate that he used the NPA as his guide post. The nuance that he’s pointing to is very pertainent and needs to be considered imo.
As to whether you will or won’t post your sons video. I am sorry you feel that way. I think that he would, at the very least, get an honest and hopeful look by those that care about helping little ones. In my time here I’ve never seen an 8 yr old or the parent posting, abused by anyone, nor do I believe Steven, Roger, myself or many others including Dino would stand for it. My advice to you is not to allow any other person to control your behavior, if you feel you’d like some advice or just to show your justified parental pride, no one will rain on that parade…many will be happy to help. Why create a pygmallion situation by predicting something bad where it’s never happened before?