Shoulder injury - frame by frame of Nolan


#1

Sorry, blurry but the best I’ve got.


















#2

I was going to say that his PAS elbow is a little high, but not too bad.

What concerns me the most is how he takes his PAS hand behind his back after breaking his hands.


#3

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]What concerns me the most is how he takes his PAS hand behind his back after breaking his hands.[/quote]My eyes must be deceiving me because I don’t see that at all.


#4

It seems like he’s not throwing the ball with both feet on the ground. That might suggest that he’s throwing all arm which I’m sure would hurt his shoulder…I could be wrong I’m really not an expert on this at all, but my coach has been trying to get me to throw with both feet on the ground to use my full body…just a thought


#5

Good catch. Most of the top pitchers drag the back foot and it doesn’t lift off the ground until ball release or thereafter. Lifting the back foot early often indicates the head and shoulders are getting too far out front. But that doesn’t look like the case with this pitcher. Still, I agree something seems fishy here.


#6

The only thing i could think of is not streching before pitching and not getting the core fired. Or that he is not in baseball shape so it puts stress on the shoulder and arm.


#7

My humble opinion is a slight bull whipping arm action in his technique. A combination of upright torso, both knees close together at release and soreness and/or pain in the back side shoulder are telltale signs.


#8

The frame below is the one I’m mostly talking about. Notice how his elbow is both above and behind his shoulders. It’s not as high as Mark Prior’s but it’s higher than Greg Maddux’s.

His PAS elbow is still quite high in the frame below. If you look at a photo of Greg Maddux at the same point, his elbow will be a couple of inches lower. I think that is a significant difference, and could be related to the impingement. Jonathan Papelbon is having shoulder problems, I think for a similar reason.

The frame below shows his hips rotating before his shoulders, which is why I think the comments about his being all arm are off base. However, his hip/shoulder separation isn’t quite what it could be. This might be something to work on.

The frame below shows he achieves an extraordinary amount of external rotation (180 degrees) for his age. He’s throwing the ball very hard. However, his shoulder has to properly conditioned to be able to handle this load.


#9

Thanks. His pitching coach caught that and has since eliminated it…but bad habits can come back if you aren’t careful.


#10

I’m just trying to give you an observation here, not concrete advice. Just as someone who’s watched alot of different kids pitch as a player and coach.

In the “fastball 70- degree facing” video it looks like he reaches back with his pitching arm toward firstbase quite a bit. The camera angle is from the third base side facing and you can still see the arm wrap around the firstbase side. Then as he releases the ball it appears to come out more like that of a sidearmer. To me anyway it looks like there is alot of action across the body and not so much straight toward the catcher.

He doesn’t bend much at the waist when decelerating the pitching arm and his right leg doesn’t come up much. How much of this might change if you could see him pitch from a mound? Have you viewed the Bill Thurston videos Steve posted? He talks about shoulder problems as they relate to faults in mechanics.


#11

This is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s not as obvious in this frame, but it’s still there.


#12

Thanks. His pitching coach caught that and has since eliminated it…but bad habits can come back if you aren’t careful.[/quote]

I don’t really see this.

If you look at the pictures, you can see that he never gets completely airborne like Lincecum.

He’s more like Oswalt, which isn’t necessarily bad.

However, it could be that he’s trying to push off with his back foot too much which could theoretically reduce his hip/shoulder separation.


#13

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]The frame below is the one I’m mostly talking about. Notice how his elbow is both above and behind his shoulders. It’s not as high as Mark Prior’s but it’s higher than Greg Maddux’s.

SO WHAT what does that prove Chris? Does EVERYODY have to throw like Greg Maddux? If they dont does that mean certain injury? "You have ABSOLUTLEY ZERO proof in regards to any of your claims and “notions” they simply does not exist. How many degrees is he countered and why is it bad? See what I mean???

His PAS elbow is still quite high in the frame below. If you look at a photo of Greg Maddux at the same point, his elbow will be a couple of inches lower. I think that is a significant difference, and could be related to the impingement. Jonathan Papelbon is having shoulder problems, I think for a similar reason.

There you go again! Just another UNEDUCATED guess, You would do yourself a HUGE favor and actually learn a little about gleno-humeral articulations as well as how they relate to scapo-thoractic movement BEFORE commmenting on all of these guys that are surely doomed. Since we are on this subject in one of your previous “gems” you posted Smoltz had shoulder troubles please exspouse further on those shoulder problems, what were they?

The frame below shows his hips rotating before his shoulders, which is why I think the comments about his being all arm are off base. However, his hip/shoulder separation isn’t quite what it could be. This might be something to work on.

Great hip rotation means NOTHING IF the potential energy is NOT being transferred well, Which by the way IS part of this kids problem, however unlike you I will not attempt to draw mechanics conclusions because what is available in terms of videop/pics Is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being in decent form to draw any conclusions. Cmon Chris you have a few still pics from the side and in the dark!

The frame below shows he achieves an extraordinary amount of external rotation (180 degrees) for his age. He’s throwing the ball very hard. However, his shoulder has to properly conditioned to be able to handle this load.

That is the only real and tangable thing you have said. Although it is NOT a reason to change anything over. You spout off about shoulders like you really know what you are talking about, which is NOT GOOD because you dont. You obviousely have refused to look at the stuff I offered up about shoulders. Of course I understand why, these top notch doctors that are writing these papers are obviously way behind your “notions” and their own research has no business in Chris Olearlys camp, especially if it does not coincide with your half cocked unproven guesses. The facts are shoulders are a very very tough thing to diagnose EVEN when there is a multitude of mechanisms to examine them. Somehow you can tell though. These orho. docs look at the film and do their own physical exams and still scatch their heads but somehow you armed with a LACK of education as well as a lack of all these filming techniques as well as not even knowing what you would be looking at IF you had them, which you dont. “Chris Olearys cookie cutter mechanics program”, throw like clemens/maddux/garcia because they have had great careers. NEVER mind that you are an individual and your own body WILL enjoy many degrees of movement that may or may not be different than everybody else. Just try one time to read a little bit about scapothoractic rythem and movement as well as glenohumeral movements. Pay close attention to the degrees of retraction/elevation that the humeral and scap perform in unison. Pay close attention as to WHY!! Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly believe you are qaulified to make such statements? DO you think you know enough about shoulders and elbows to say what you say about them? Or are you simply comparing those who may have had less injuries? It has got to be one or the other Chris. Just for ther kick of it I may send you a clip to look at today and give your assesment on. That is if you will NOT charge me, I wouldnt give you a red cent to B.S. me about anything in regards to pitching mechanics. Its not like I am trying to con you out of advcie that may save a kids chances, you know that about me. In fact Id run the other way from your advice. This is nothing more than my test of you. You may actually change the way I think about you Chris, not that that matters!Ive got a clip of a 11 year old touching 70. Id love to hear your diagnosment as to WHY he had some shoulder problems. Ill send it to you, you are not authroized to do anything with it other than give your own personal analysis.

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#14

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]
The frame below shows he achieves an extraordinary amount of external rotation (180 degrees) for his age. He’s throwing the ball very hard. However, his shoulder has to properly conditioned to be able to handle this load.[/quote]

Yeah, he has hit 81 mph, cruises upper 70’s, but of course that doesn’t mean a thing if he isn’t pitching. He was told by his coach 6 months ago and now his doctor that he is unbalanced, i.e., his front side is stronger than his back side. He’s been told that his scaps stick out, indicative of lack of muscular balance (even though he is very strong) which is a component of his trouble.

Now, I make no claims to be any kind of expert, but what the doc and the coach have said makes sense.

On another note, I wish I had recent pics of Nolan pitching from the mound, it would be a much better diagnostic tool I think. But having said that, all of his throwing for the past 3 months has been from the flat. I am concerned that throwing from the flat without throwing regularly from a mound is part of the problem. What do you all think?


#15

That’s what I figured.

He’s got a lot of potential, assuming his arm holds together.

Does he do a lot of bench presses or push-ups?

These can be bad by creating a muscle imbalance by working the front of the shoulder but not the back of the shoulder.

You can also create additional problems if you take the bar all the way down to the chest or your chest all the way down to the floor.

Have you tried the “Throwers Ten” program. This is a balanced conditioning program for pitchers.

If not, Google it.

It can certainly change his timing, which can cause problems.

When throwing off of flat ground, the GS foot will tend to land sooner than it would when throwing from a mound.


#16

[quote=“hoseman18”]He’s been told that his scaps stick out, indicative of lack of muscular balance (even though he is very strong) which is a component of his trouble. [/quote]My son had this very issue at the beginning of last summer. It was the diagnosis of the root cause of a supraspinatus problem he had. Actually, the root cause of the supra problem was a weak serratus anterior (amongst other things). This kind of instability can result in misalignment that can cause all sorts of tissue damage in throwing activities.


#17

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]

Does he do a lot of bench presses or push-ups?[/quote]

He’s a push-up maniac.

I downloaded the “throwers ten” and had a look. The elbow abduction exerise has the player raising the weight above his head. Is this a good thing? I would assume it would be potentially problematic with this type of shoulder injury, and just in general.


#18

This may be the root cause of the imbalance. Push-ups are better than bench presses, but can still be problematic because you’re not working all of the muscles of the shoulder.

This is OK, because the elbow is in front of the shoulders.

However, you should run this program by your MD or PT.


#19

Getting strong is a good thing but from personal experience in the marines stay away from the push ups. Nobody does more than in there.
I’m sure its overkill compared to your sons,but you say he’s a pushup maniac nip it now.
I have alot of shoulder problems now.Pain can be sharp and right at the top of the shoulder. (collar bone meets shoulder) SORRY for the lack of medical terminology,I’m NOT a doctor so I don’t feel like I should speak like one.Try not to make this to complicated with to much info from people who have had similar problems. Everyones make up is different. Go to the profesionals, the one you feel comfortable with. Look at it like you did when you got a pitching coach you trusted.Do your homework on him and the rest is feeling comfortable and going with your gut.Good luck to you.