Short Long Toss Vs. Long Toss

Long Toss and Short Long Toss which was created by MLB teams

Long Toss Distance- 160+ has an arch more to it not straight on line.

Short Long Toss-120 on line

People think that Short Long toss is more effecive because it has same mechanics are pitching. meaning you can use you wind-up to do it and keep the mechanics the same.

On Long Toss it’s harder to keep the mechanics the same and you need to do a crow hop to do it and tilt shoulders/change mechanics.

I think if you go from 120-160 on a line that might be more safe and effective then 300 feet on an arch no matter which way you do it still has max effort into it.

What way do you think is better long toss or short long toss?

CaDad i would like to hear your thoughts on the above q’s since you know a good deal about Long toss.

Do you think throwing 300 on an arch or 120 in a straight line is better?

Purpose of long toss:

Conditioning
Stretch out arm {make it use to max effort throws}
Velocity

Now Long Toss is based on the more you can stretch out the arm to a max distance the more Mph you can gain the more strength it will gain and the more use to the workload you will get.

Short Long Toss is based on reducing injury thinking that mechanics change beyond 120 feet and throw on straight line so that release point stay’s the same.

http://www.webball.com/cms/page4581.cfm

^ article about why you should stretch out past 120 feet.

MY VIEW

Pitchers should NOT Crow Hop {Crow hop isn’t the goal mechanics like on the mound would be far more effecive since they are two different things}
Pitchers Should use mound mechanics
Distance should be 120-180 on straight as can be line

Tell me your side of Long Toss vs Short Long Toss and which one is better. Maybe we can come up with a Long Toss program that is safe and effective?

You bring up a great argument RiStar.

Personally I’ve been on both sides of the fence on this one.

Right now, I would prefer to air it out as long as possible. Nevermind the shoulder tilt and mechanics, this session is to work on arm strength.
When I get out to the end of my session, I will bring it in to 120’ and get my shoulders back on line and get my so called “mechanics” back to where they need to be. It’s really not a tough adjustment whatsoever. Some of you I’m sure disagree with me on this. But think about this, quarterbacks change shoulder angles and release points on every single pass! They don’t have a problem with it whatsoever.

IMO there are plenty of ways to improve “mechanics” and really not many to improve arm strength. Long toss is the best way, so when I’m long tossing, every ounce of my energy is going to go into throwing that ball as hard and as far as possible and getting the maximum out of my body. Throwing hard has to come with intent. There are plenty other areas to worry about mechanics: bullpen sessions, dry work drills, towel drills, flatground sessions, mirror work, video taping, mental visualization, throwing from 120’and in, the lost goes on and on.

Basically my point is, when your long tossing, LET IT RIP!

RiStar, why would I use “mound mechanics” during long toss out past 120’? That will do nothing for me.

There are plenty of ways to work on your “mound mechanics” but it’s certainly unnecessary for long toss. A cro-hop is perfect for long toss to allow oneself to get maximum efficiency and momentum out of the body. Not to mention throwing from an anchored position will put more stress on your arm. Also, “mound mechanics” should be for the mound and it’s slope.

My point was 120 feet do close to mound mechanics but if you do exceed past 120+ you should try to crow hop a little.

I did notice at a New York at boston game I went to that Chein Ming Wang used his Mechanics mostly from Green Monster to the right field line with a High Arch on the ball. Now the mechanics where not really 100% the same but he lifted his leg up and planted it just like he would on the mound. He used the momnetum of his mechanics minus a crow hop to throw the ball.

What you think

Honestly guys, I think this forum is way to bent on the word “mechanics”. There’s a reson why nobodies found the best way to throw a baseball!!! That’s why there are so many people making tons of money (House etc) on marketing ideas that are all different! Don’t you guys wonder why every big league pitcher looks different? There’s no secret to that. There are a few common things that most pitchers to very similiar (big leaguers) and that is their positioning at release. If you look at Tom Glavine and Billy Wagner at release, it would appear they look similiar but if you connect the dots on the delivery you will see many different approaches, especially in momentum and explosion.

Momentum and mainting it through release should be mostly important for kids rather than trying to break down a delivery step by step thus losing energy and breaking up the kinetic chain.

My point is, the last thing you should be worried about when your throwing a ball 300’ is what is my glove doing, how is the arc of my arm, am I pulling open? This is nonsense! Long toss is about arm strength and body efficiency! Do not get all mechanical!!!

Long toss is one of a few things that can overload your training in between starts to prepare you to throw a hundred pitches! Do not become a mechanical junkie in long toss and take away from the arm preparation that you really need.

Ok my problem is Crow Hop for me doesn’t work that well and I tend to tighten up my arm and I lift it higher and it doesn’t feel good at all. But If I just use my mechanics kind of without a crow Hop it feels alot better.

I think I would do 120 feet mechanics or similer motion to it

and

120+ try to crow hop the best that I can.

What do you think?

Why coudn’t you use similer mechanics in long toss with the leg lift plant and every thing else beside release point? Josh Beckett and Chein Ming Wang do it without a crow hop?

These is a video of Chein Ming Wang and how he long tosses

For you if it’s a comfort thing, then do what’s comfortable. If you do your normal delivery I just would try to forget about everything but gaining momentum and getting extension and stretching that arm.

The reason I like to do the cro-hop is because I get out of the delivery side of the pitch and it’s easier for me to just think about the task at hand, which is arm strength and cutting it loose.

But I certainly wouldn’t limit yourself to 120’ in fear that it will change your mechanics. If your doing plenty of other things like drills, and brining the long toss back into 120’ and on a line, then you have nothing to worry about mechanically. Cut it loose man, and gain some arm strength and body efficiency!

Well do you think it would be safe to use my mechanics for long toss past 120 feet like 180 feet without a crow hop and working on momentum and letting my body throw?

Personally, I would use a cro-hop after 120’

Here’s my reasoning:

When using “mound mechanics” you should try and focus using these and practicing these on a mound. Mound Mechanics such as gaining momentum and pulling off the rubber are best suited for the slope of a mound. Momentum starting from a stationary position is best suited to help a pitcher throw downhill.

When you get out to throwing 250 or 300 feet by using mound mechanics I believe the tendancy will be to muscle the baseball instead of gaining distance and direction through a crohop.

IMO using a crohop past 120 feet will get the most out of your body while trying to gain arm strength.

How come you don’t like using a crohop?

Well I do and don’t

I rather do 120 with mechanics and then 120+ up to 200 with crow hop. It just feels very weird to crow hop at a short distance I guess.

But I will use the crow hop

What should the angle be on balls past 120+ feet be? Should it be a 45 degree angle or something else?

I’m not really sure I could put an exact angle on it. Whichever one you can throw the furthest at! Air it out!

Just found a video of Dice-k using wind-up in long toss

I know hard to see but no crow hop just wind-up

So, if it’s all about arm strength and conditioning, why does it matter what distance you reach? It’s about “airing it out” isn’t it? I see little value in a crow hop. I see no harm in it either. Would we not accomplish the same thing, that being to air it out, whether we crow hopped or not. You just wouldn’t throw it as far without the crow hop, but who cares about that absolute distance. It’s the “effective” distance that counts, doesn’t it?

… and Hammer, why would you want to work on “mechanics” on flat ground? I see very little value in that when the overall timing of the parts will change significantly when you then go on a mound.

What is the most effective distance?

So it is ok to throw with no crow hop in long toss right Dm?

dm…

read the posts again, I don’t want to work on mechanics on a flat ground, that was my whole bit for “mound mechanics” being for the mound and other areas… NOT LONG TOSSING.

You just made my point for me, why would I use my delievery on FLAT GROUND for long toss? It makes no sense. Why not use and gain distance and direction and in a sense overloading my body by crohopping and getting the absolute most out of my body and each throw.

If you don’t want to be able to see your gains, go ahead and go out to 120’ and stay there. Personally I like to see how my arm strength is improving, therefore I air it out and EXTEND myself as far as possible, and put my body to the test. No sense in being conservative in long toss.

Crow Hopping gives GREAT value in long tossing. You already proved my point in your post when you said “You just wouldn’t throw it as far without the crow hop, but who cares about absolute distance.” Your RIGHT, you wouldn’t throw it close to as far without a crow hop! That’s exactly why people should use a crow hop when extending their arm. Don’t you want your body to be OVERLOADED and trained to be able to throw harder? Don’t we want to maximize what we get out of our body in long toss? Sometimes I think this forum is too much like a mechanical robot, with not enough attention on things like momentum and creating excessive energy to push the body.

Aa far as long toss: There’s no right or wrong answer. Some people like airing it out, others have had success throwing 120 ft. We’re always looking for a concrete black or white answer when in most cases when it comes to pitching it’s a gray area.

Flat ground: A lot of people have discussed how flat ground throwing is different from mound throwing and therefore shouldn’t be used. I agree with the concept that mechanics will change, but I don’t think flat ground is useless. Watch how many big league pitchers throw quick flat grounds after they play catch. It’s only about 10-15 pitches, but it’s used to get a feel for release point on all their pitches and it’s certainly not going to make them worse as pitchers.

The goal of pitching is to repeat the same delivery over and over. While this is the main goal, the reality is that it doesn’t happen for most. When a pitcher doesn’t repeat the mechanics of his body he then has to have the athletic ability and FEEL to get his arm to the right position in order to throw a strike. To me that’s what long toss, flat ground and just overall throwing are all about. The more you throw, the more you figure out how to get your arm to the right position to be successful.

I don’t think any kind of throwing is useless. I do think flat ground throwing has very little value if your goal is honing the skill of pitching from a mound. The same goes for long toss. It’s good for what it’s good for but it won’t help you hone that particular skill required when on a mound.

My point about long toss was not to limit yourself to 120 ft. or any other distance. Whichever method you choose, you still need to use distance as the gauge for effort. Crow hopping or not isn’t the point. Effort is. If you throw 250 ft. with a crow hop and full effort, great. If you throw 170 ft. with no crow hop but that’s your full effort, great. Also, the distance you will be able to throw changes with each person. That’s why I say it’s the effort level that’s important, not the absolute distance.

dm,
You’re right and you’re wrong. It has been my experience that most people just can’t tell if they are delivering full effort unless they are trying to throw their maximum distance or they are getting immediate feedback from a radar gun. So, if a person could do a good job of judging their level of effort from 120’ then that would be fine. You’re right. They usually can’t. You’re wrong.

For example, I played long toss with my son yesterday. His distance increased a bit over the last session. My preference would be to play long toss again on Saturday, but the first game of fall ball is a week from Saturday so what we’ll probably do instead is have him throw a pen focusing on command and then at the end of the pen if his arm feels good we’ll have him throw 5 to 8 pitches for velocity, which we’ll measure on the gun. That should have a similar effect to the long toss although I doubt it will be quite as effective from a building velocity standpoint. On the other hand with a game coming up and his not having pitched in a game since early July he needs to focus more on control and command for now. I’ll try to sneak in a few peeks with the radar gun while he’s throwing a simulated batter to see what he hits. He won’t get feedback on those. My guess is that he’ll be working 79-81 the first time out and that when we have him go for velocity he’ll be 79 to 82 or 83. He will get feedback when he’s going for velocity. The goal is to get the 79-81 up to 81-83 by the time the season starts and the 79 to 82 or 83 up to a more consistent 84 to 85 by the time the season starts. We’ll see.