Scoring

[scorekeeper]

CoachPaul has suggested starting a new thread, and since I’m interested in what he and others have to say on this topic, I’m doing that. So I’ll respond to his last post here.

All comments are more than welcome.

Wow, that’s a lot of quoting and commenting. Since I type these mostly on my mobile phone, it gets very complicated copying and pasting quotes, and I like to keep my comments brief. As for right now, I’m at home with access to a full keyboard, so I’ll make my final detailed post in this thread.

You’ve got to retire like me so you can sit at home in front of a big screen monitor and full keyboard, with a cool beverage close at hand.

You may want to start a score keeping thread as this thread is drifting from its original topic. :idea:

I don’t know that its scorekeeping, which is pretty straightforward, but rather I think its statistics, how they’re done and what they’re used to do. FI, according to the rules, there’s only one way to make a ground out to short. 6-3. But when us wonks get our filthy fingers on it, all kinds of things start to happen. It might be G6-3, HG6-3, RHB6-3, LHP6-3, 5/6-3, and it goes on and on for as many ways as people figure out ways they want to see what happened on the field be represented.

[quote]To wrap up…

Currently coaching 13-15 year old Babe Ruth in the Spring. I umpire in Summer and coach a developmental team of 12-13 year olds in the Fall to get them some experience on the full sized field. [/quote]

Interesting. Do you do anything with HS players? That’s a selfish question.

I might (at that’s a might and not a certainty) miss a thing here or there during the game, however, most parents think I see more than most coaches in the league. Assistant coaches are also volunteers and most of them have vastly less experience than I do and don’t really know how to score even simple plays in the book. I prefer to spend my time with the kids and not coaching up the parents on score keeping. The kids learn much faster than the adults.

Maybe this will help. Its something I threw together a couple years back when our local LL decided to try to teach scorekeeping.

I don’t doubt you see a lot, and in some instances maybe even more than I as an SK see from behind the plate, or as close to it as possible, but most coaches who are in the position of “calling the shots” for the team, can’t carry a book all over the place with them. But the point isn’t that you or anyone else can’t or don’t keep a good book!

The point is, that isn’t your job. In theory you’re thinking about defensive positioning, game situations, who’d batting and their capabilities, who’s pitching and their capabilities, what you’re gonna do if “A” happens and what different if “B” happens, as well as keeping a bunch of pubescent and barely post-pubescent boys in check and working together, not to mention trying to keep the parents at bay. Spending a few hours training a SK could give you back 10 times the hours you invest.

I’ve always been very much against having players or coaches keep the book, at any level. Of course that’s assuming the statistics are being used to make important decisions. The vantage point of scoring a game from the dugout starts out causing inconsistency. But more importantly, the built-in bias is simply not acceptable to me. I realize there are times when it can’t be avoided, but I’ve taught 3rd and 4th graders to keep a basic book in very little time, so I know its not an insurmountable task.

As for accuracy, my numbers are consistent. As for using ipads and apps, other coaches try that and they get so far behind answering all the prompts from the screen that they miss the next two pitches and ask me what happened anyway. I can pretty much keep score without diverting any real attention to the book because I’ve done it for so long. So, for me, the book is simple, accurate, and has everything I need to manage my team. Where the book my not be designed for keeping accurate stats, my shorthand and methods give me all I need at a glance.

If you’re the only guy doing it, I have no doubt about the consistency of your book.

I’m with you on the apps! They’re great for some people because they’re a quantum leap above what they had previously as far as stats. When I decided to come into the new age of electronic scoring, I tried 2 of the most popular apps. The 1st thing I found was, using them on a phone wasn’t getting it. It was too small for these old eyes. Using them on an IPad was much better, but as you noted, there were too many things needing to be done, not to mention going back to change something.

That’s why I ended up writing my own. It does exactly what I want, in exactly the order I want them done, and it does it on a laptop. But importantly, I made it forgiving when it comes to changing things. Even more importantly, mine allows me to integrate all the past data in order to compare players and performances from the past. I helps keep things in perspective.

As far as data mining goes, I don’t spend more than 20 minutes after each game updating a simple excel spreadsheet that has season to date and week to date numbers.

LOL. If all you’re spending is 20 minutes after a game, I’m jealous. Before I converted to electronic scoring, I was spending between 40 minutes to an hour and a half of data input.

Would you mind sending me a copy of your SS? Personally, I don’t use a SS, but I have dozens of examples of them from coaches all over the country. Every once in a while I find something I don’t do that I’d like to incorporate into my system. If you go to http://infosports.com/scorekeeper/ there’s a link that says “Contact Scorekeeper” that will send me an e-mail. You can attach a copy of the SS and fire it off. I’d really appreciate it.

I use that data for after practice and after game discussions as well as strategy talks during pre and post-game stretching.

Do you “publish” the numbers?

All of that stuff, is also off the topic of control vs velocity, although a good idea for a new thread.

I’ll go ahead and start a separate thread, but to me its really all the same thing. Control vs. velocity has no meaning unless it can be measured, and it can’t be measured without some form of data tracking.

[CoachPaul]

Interesting. Do you do anything with HS players? That’s a selfish question.

Other than umpiring American Legion games once in a while, I do not yet do anything significant with HS age kids. As my son moves to HS next year, that may change.

The point is, that isn’t your job. In theory you’re thinking about defensive positioning, game situations, …Spending a few hours training a SK could give you back 10 times the hours you invest.

I’ve also found that sometimes my data entry is slowed because I can’t figure out what someone has written or they forgot to edit the pitch sequences, etc because they were breaking up a grab-ass session on the bench. I have a bench coach who maintains order in the dugout and makes sure Johnny gets his bat and helmet on time and that no one walks through the on deck area and gets his head taken off. I have another coach take first base and another at 3rd base. Any questions the kids have for me are taken between innings not between pitches. Anything they need right then, they ask an assistant.

LOL. If all you’re spending is 20 minutes after a game, I’m jealous. Before I converted to electronic scoring, I was spending between 40 minutes to an hour and a half of data input.

I’m very fast at data entry because I can use a 10 key with prowess.

I use that data for after practice and after game discussions as well as strategy talks during pre and post-game stretching.

When talking to the pitchers before the game or at practice, if we have field time that week, I’ll give them a bullet on each of the top 5-6 hitters in the opposing line-up (all pitchers…not just the ones scheduled that day) After the game, we will review one player’s at bats at the same time before moving to the next player down the order to about the 6th spot in the line up, then only talk about any significant contact coming from the 7-13th spots in the order.

Do you “publish” the numbers?

The numbers are for my use, not for the parents to second-guess my line-ups by combing through the stats. I also use the data for the next season’s draft because after a while you get significant data about all the kids in the league because after 6-7 years, I think I’ve coached almost every kid in the league who isn’t the son of another head coach. Combine that with the data I get facing those kids, and I can tell you anything about how the kid plays and where he should be playing on the field or batting in a line-up. I’ve followed this group up from tee-ball to babe ruth as my own son has gotten older.

[CoachPaul]

I wanted to show you my pitch tracking sheet. I’ve cobbled it together using various ideas from other sheets that I liked.

I just now updated the right side where I had a scoring box by changing it to a 3 line system that looks like yours.

I was going to send it to you, but there was no ‘add attachment’ option for the contact scorekeeper link you provided. There is only a box for a message. If you PM me with your email address, I’ll send you a copy.

[scorekeeper]

Other than umpiring American Legion games once in a while, I do not yet do anything significant with HS age kids. As my son moves to HS next year, that may change.

Good luck! I think you’ll find HSB very different than what you’ve been used to, in a good way.

I’ve also found that sometimes my data entry is slowed because I can’t figure out what someone has written or they forgot to edit the pitch sequences, etc because they were breaking up a grab-a** session on the bench. I have a bench coach who maintains order in the dugout and makes sure Johnny gets his bat and helmet on time and that no one walks through the on deck area and gets his head taken off. I have another coach take first base and another at 3rd base. Any questions the kids have for me are taken between innings not between pitches. Anything they need right then, they ask an assistant.

I think that’s something you’ll find diminishes as you go through the HSB experience. The kids still play grab-a**, but the threat of punishment is usually taken a lot more seriously. But the main thing is, the kids get more mature, not just physically, but mentally as well.

I’m very fast at data entry because I can use a 10 key with prowess.

If you use the number pad well, you’d likely love doing data entry with my program.

When talking to the pitchers before the game or at practice, if we have field time that week, I’ll give them a bullet on each of the top 5-6 hitters in the opposing line-up (all pitchers…not just the ones scheduled that day) After the game, we will review one player’s at bats at the same time before moving to the next player down the order to about the 6th spot in the line up, then only talk about any significant contact coming from the 7-13th spots in the order.

Sounds like a sound plan of attack to me.

The numbers are for my use, not for the parents to second-guess my line-ups by combing through the stats. I also use the data for the next season’s draft because after a while you get significant data about all the kids in the league because after 6-7 years, I think I’ve coached almost every kid in the league who isn’t the son of another head coach. Combine that with the data I get facing those kids, and I can tell you anything about how the kid plays and where he should be playing on the field or batting in a line-up. I’ve followed this group up from tee-ball to babe ruth as my own son has gotten older.

I’m never surprised that so many coaches believe publishing stats is doing little more than giving parents a club to beat them with, but I wonder how many parents actually do that. But more, I wonder how often that really happens. I like the way the guy I score for now handles those kinds of parents, which is few and far between.

The way he does that, is to make sure the players know how they’re being evaluated and compared, and what methods are being used. Complaining parents are then told to talk to their child about why things are the way they are, and if they don’t get a satisfactory answer, they can both come to him and they’ll discuss it together.

I applaud you for the way you use the data you’ve taken the time to accumulate. What percentage of coaches you know have done the same thing?

Here’s something to think about, just in case you ever get into a HC position in a HS program. Rather than do it yourself, go to the principal and get permission to have a student manager you can train to keep score, do stats, etc., that travels with the team and is considered part of the team. That way you may end up with someone who’s biased toward the team, but as a part of the team s/he won’t cause any of the problems a parent or player scorer does.

[CoachPaul]

Good comments