RHP Throwing arm too far towards first

Hello Everyone,

First, I wish you all the best for 2012.

My son (10) has, according to me (as a proud father) good mechanics. But I heard from a pitching coach that is throwing arm is heading too far towards first base. Or his upperbody rotates too far. My question is; Is this really a bad thing?

Below is a link and in frame 32 you see his throwing arm heading towards first base.

https://plus.google.com/photos/102667396347533100806/albums/5692757691199413041

I am curious to the answers.

Thanks.

Ray

Those mechs aren’t bad Ray, the point the coach made is a good one. Over-rotating is a timing problem and an arm path issue. On the good side he gets a pretty significant scap load.
I would certainly recommend working on arm path/arm action in relationship to footstrike, you want more equal and opposite at footstrike, by over-rotating, the body has to compensate in some way in order to deliver the ball “on time”. Your son does 2 things it looks like to compensate (I prefer video to stills) he opens his stride foot way too far and he moves his head (Take a pencil at mid-point of his body and you’ll see a significant 1st base side shift in his head as he delivers), these things can effect accuracy, repeatability and add additional stress to key arm points…(Specifically it looks like it stresses his shoulder).
No need for alarm though…the pc has it in his sights and these things can be worked out fairly quickly. Some good form drill work will be most helpful.
Enjoy your time with him…it’s a great age for learning.

@jdfromfla, Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate this.
His stride foot is something I noticed before. The shift of his head is a new thing to me. The scap load was one of the first things I taught him. As I do with all kids I train and coach. But the thing I was actually worried about was the stress on his shoulder with this over-rotating. But as you mentioned his PC has this covered.

I searched my computer and found a video from the same game.
Poor quality footage. But still reasonable to watch.

The other one is a sideview from antother game.

Thanks so far.

He looks great, especially for a 10 year old.

He looks really good for 10u and I really like the way you have photographed him, you must have a very fast camera.

As for his mchanics, I think he could work on keeping his left shoulder on target vs turning it away on his post. Next I would work on his left foot not heading out so much to the 3rd base side before getting all his momentum coming forward. I also wouldn’t worry so much about the break of his hands, the scap load he gets some pitchers work very hard to get to develop better velocity.

@kylejamers: Thanks.

@buwhite: Thanks. The camera I used is a Casio EX ZR10. A compact camera. Those videos are also made with it.
We still have a couple of years to fine tune his mechanics. As long as he enjoys the game. And to this day he does.

But again thank you for your advice.

Ray:

very impressive… i dont remember seeing a 10U kid look that good honestly.

my son, now 13, has very similar mechanics. he struggled w/ that same arm position/path as well. The counter rotation of the shoulders does factor in. This last year we saw my son eliminate the flaw. We worked on arm path… drills against the wall etc… Not much help. I think it was an increase in strength that created the fix. The counter rotation & inertia makes it really tuff for pre 13’s to keep that arm from getting behind plane.

in the interim make sure hes doing an arm care and exercise program (Steve’s tuff cuff from this site is great)… it will help eliminate the issue and also make his shoulder more stable. my son would get high shoulder pain… thats the area that takes on the stress from the behind plane “lag” thats created.

keep us posted on ur sons progress… I would like to watch his progression. again, those are the cleanest mechanics i’ve seen at that age.

Keep it healthy & keep it fun!

@12JTWilson,

Thanks for your kind words. Until a couple of weeks ago I did’nt think it was special. But there’s a pitching coach in The Netherlands who shared a video of my son on facebook. And it received a lot of positive replies an likes and quite af few from the US. That made me very proud of course. Because everything he does I taught him.

Do you have some videos or pictures of your son?

I would love to see them.

Again Thankx,

Ray

[quote=“Ray”]@12JTWilson,

Thanks for your kind words. Until a couple of weeks ago I did’nt think it was special. But there’s a pitching coach in The Netherlands who shared a video of my son on facebook. And it received a lot of positive replies an likes and quite af few from the US. That made me very proud of course. Because everything he does I taught him.

Do you have some videos or pictures of your son?

I would love to see them.

Again Thankx,

Ray[/quote]

Ray,

Pretty good. The first thing that stood out at me was him coming to a balance point and not getting the hips moving forward. Can’t see from this angle, but the lack of momentum and energy created by getting the center mass moving could force him to over rotate, simple timing problem. The area I would spend most of my time with is the arm action. Looks like he goes straight from the glove with the intent to get the ball up. Notice how Verlander does not get the ball up until the shoulders begin rotating. I saw where someone mentioned good scap load, I would disagree, looks like it is very passive. Meaning he doesn’t have much intent to “get it” going out oft the glove. Doesn’t have the intent to throw with the glove side, I don’t see much of an aggressive action with the glove. Looks to finish really well, I think he just has some simple timing problems. Again, focus on the arm action and allow the shoulders turning to get the arm up and redirect the path. Impressive

I’ll offer a slightly different approach…

I also noticed the “balance point”. It makes him slower to the plate which means he has more time during his delivery - and that’s time to mess things up like taking an unecessarily long arm path, over-rotating, etc.

I believe if you get him moving forward and get him into foot plant faster, other things will take care of themselves as they adapt to the faster timing. To help with this, I’d adjust his starting position to be more athletic by putting some bend in the knees and waist.

I would also keep my eye on the posture as JD mentioned.

@Roger,

With the starting postion would also suggest to have his feet shoulder width apart together with the bend knees and waist?

Thanks,

Ray

@Baseballthinktank.com

Very nice video.

Thanks for your comment.

He has something to work on this season.

Thanks again.

Ray

What do you see? Both guys are throwing the ball 78 mph.

First thing and the most dramatic thing I see is the high release of the lefty, and how much more movement he gets on the ball, I think because he is throwing down through the zone.

Thanks everybody for your time and effort to look at this little man.

If I understand correctly and after watching the comparison with Justin verlander I notice indeed a couple of things. And excuse me for my plain and simple English to explain myself.
Verlander stands on a mound so with the leg kick he falls forward and my son stands on a flat surface. Or doen’t that matter? The other thing I see is when Verlander releases the ball and follows through his leg straightens. Is that good? It looks like it stops him in his motion. I am not a professional off course.
When I look at my son he throws in his but towards the plate, just like in the Hershiser drill. I don’t see that with Justin verlander. Which is good/better? Just curious.

These are the things to focus on:
His arm path needs attention. Pitching coach has this covered.
With the landing his hips and shoulders are to far open.
All this is a timing problem.

If anyone has more suggestions; I love to read them.

Again thanks.

Ray

This kid looks great. All the requisite pieces happening, almost. I agree completely with Roger and baseballthinktank.com about getting the centre of gravity moving sideways toward the plate better. I really like how his back leg extends and rotates, as opposed to what is seen so often in pitchers of this age, where the back knee stays pointing toward 3rd for a righty throughout and the centre of gravity falls in that direction into the landing of that foot. Compare this kid’s back leg action to the best in the game. Looks great. I’d like to see a full speed video though.

Other than that…nice job Dad!!!

[/quote]Verlander stands on a mound so with the leg kick he falls forward and my son stands on a flat surface. Or doen’t that matter? The other thing I see is when Verlander releases the ball and follows through his leg straightens. Is that good? It looks like it stops him in his motion.[quote]

I think what you see with Verlander is the intent to get the center mass moving before reaching the top of his lift. Like Roger had mentioned if you can get the hips moving forward earlier and thereby creating more energy and momentum, the arm path and action will be forced to move faster. However, if the intent is to just get the ball up and show it to 2B then it wont happen. The mound does make this easier but again the intent to get moving has to be there as well. What you are seeing with Verlanders front leg IMO is more momentum creating the effect of the front leg straightening along with him being really strong and him maintaining his posture by staying over the center of the body longer. The head or posture has a direct correlation with hip rotation and Range of motion. With your son, there is a cause/effect. Because of his arm action or intent to get the ball up early, his body feels the need to begin rotating earlier to be in a position to throw because he is “manually” creating the force on the arm and because his intent is with the hand versus the shoulders and back/chest. When this happens you will see that the head begins prematurely moving forward (leaks forward) because of early shoulder rotation. The cause/effect is that the hips will slide or leak forward ath the firming up stage (foot brace) because his head moved forward earlyand his body is not in a position to transfer all the energy up the chain or vertically so it moves slightly forward as well. You want to think of the front side as a braking mechanism, (glove/front leg) once they have landed, their job is to transfer the energy from bottom to top (front leg) and from back to front (glove side)The throw is designed to rotate around the spine and when the spine is moving forward (head) then the hips are forced to move forward versus rotate. Notice how his front leg after bracing leaks forward or slides. I think with just a few timing adjustments a lot of this will fix itself.

IMO, I always start with the arm action. To me the entire delivery, look and timing is built around the arm action. It all starts there. I see his body trying to keep the arm moving and not stopping and the only way for that to occur is to get the shoulders to rotate earlier and because the shoulders rotate earlier, posture is effected and forces the head to move prematurely. Hope this helps.

Wow!
A whole new world is opening up for me.
@Baseballthinktank.com you amaze me with these videos. I really appreciate it very much.

@dm59 thank you!

I’ll keep you all posted on the progess he will be making this season. Thanks for your comments and help.

“What would you think if I pitch out of tune”
“Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends”
:slight_smile:

Ray