Many pitchers have Atype personalities. We want to take charge and get st*t done. This lends itself well to pitching and being a team leader.
But… i do believe we should take some time off from throwing in the offseason to let the arn heal and repair in preparation for Spring again. Keep lifting. Stay active. Cross train. Play another sport. Whatever… but, put the glove away for a bit.
At my college we really don’t get a say in it, Coach has us playing fall ball right away and after the fall ball season ends, pitchers get thrown into a long toss program 1 or 2 times a week. We also lift 2x a week until mid semester, then 3x a week until Christmas break. Pitchers play basketball on non lifting days for conditioning.
My son’s a freshman in high school. Following summer ball, the guys who aren’t playing football started a lifting and cardio program 3 times a week, along with hitting in the cage. They will continue this til prep season starts.
These are mostly pitchers and catchers. They didn’t throw for August and 2 weeks into September. Sept.15 they started throwing twice a week, doing long toss one day and bullpens the other.
Next week we begin playing three game weekend tournaments for the next 4 weeks. The coaches are planning to limit each pitcher to 50 - 60 pitches per weekend.
Man, I am horrible at posting on here I read it almost every week but can never get around to posting.
I love this topic, your exactly right about needing and wanting rest. As I have progressed throughout the years I have seen a lot of guys burn out because they hit the gym or throw right away and don’t give their bodies enough time to rest and relax. I think resting your body is just as much apart of the game as the actual season itself. You need to give yourself ample resting periods in between seasons.
Me personally, I love to do NOTHING I don’t run, lift, throw, I just spend time with my loved ones and be normal for a month and then I kick it into gear.
I’m forcing my 14 year old Freshman son to take the month of October and part of November off with no pitching and no throwing workouts. He’s been throwing almost non-stop since last year’s Spring/Summer team started their practice way back on January 3, 2011. Even though he couldn’t pitch for about 5 weeks during the season because of a broken finger, he never stopped throwing during that time. After the season ended in July, he immediately went to working out a couple of times a week doing a throwing program which then morphed into Fall baseball.
Pre-tryout basketball practices started about a month ago and he’s been dinged up ever since. He suffered from a hip flexor injury for more than three weeks and last weekend both his elbow and his shoulder hurt after he pitched 3 innings against a 17u team in a tourney. I think his main problem was that he was worried about hip pain and that caused him to change his motion a bit which was magnified by him trying to throw extra hard against guys that were two years older than him (he had an awesome outing except for the 3-run dinger he gave up against their #3 hitter).
He has one more tournament next week, but he won’t be pitching in it. After that, he’ll be able to concentrate solely on basketball until after tryouts. He hates not pitching, and I hate not being able to watch him pitch, but if I don’t make him take some time off he won’t do it. By the time mid November roles around he’ll be going crazy to get out and throw and that’s the way it should be.
Our non-professional pitchers (which is almost all of them, let’s be honest) take no time off of throwing. They stop pitching for a few weeks, but throwing never stops. The intensity is lowered in the fall and early winter months, but completely stopping isn’t an option.
For pre-pubescent athletes, completely stopping their throwing program is a good idea. For those who are biologically mature enough to handle a quality throwing program, total rest from throwing (absent an arm injury) is typically a bad idea.
KyleB although there are so many different philosophies out there (and who knows which are right) I think that you do need time off from throwing. Whether it be flat ground, short toss, long toss, or from a mound there is a still pressure being put on the elbow and shoulder joints. The throwing motion as we all know is one of the most un natural movements the human body does, and I believe all athletes no matter the age need time off.
[quote=“kyleb”]Our non-professional pitchers (which is almost all of them, let’s be honest) take no time off of throwing. They stop pitching for a few weeks, but throwing never stops. The intensity is lowered in the fall and early winter months, but completely stopping isn’t an option.
For pre-pubescent athletes, completely stopping their throwing program is a good idea. For those who are biologically mature enough to handle a quality throwing program, total rest from throwing (absent an arm injury) is typically a bad idea.[/quote]
Kyle, I have a few questions then on what you do with certain pitchers. Right now I’ve got a decent amount of GIRD, towards the end of the fall season, after pitching my arm would feel fine yet in the morning it would hurt a lot. Now I’ve noticed that I have a lot of weakness in my external rotation of my pitching arm, enough to bother me when I do some light external rotation with (sometimes without) resistance. Do you give these pitchers rest? What do you do to bring back the strength in that external rotation? What are you doing to fix ROM deficits in pitchers arms that become more difficult to fix as a player continues to throw, since the motion is just exacerbating the issue?
If you have bad GIRD then throwing should be cut back to maintenance levels - light long tossing and basic drills. You should do as much work as you can at the highest intensity you feel comfortable with.
The idea, of course, is to never get to that stage by monitoring mobility and flexibility in the shoulder during the season, but that’s not always possible for athletes who join our program late.
People say this but it can’t be proven because it’s a blanket statement. Regardless, I think the thousands of years of our ancestors throwing spears and developing tools like the atlatl proves that we’ve been throwing stuff overhead for as long as we were able to.
Over the years, I’ve only ever heard this type of recommendation from non-pro players/trainers, who never played advanced baseball and therefore just don’t know how long the college or pro season is from a players perspective. Good luck.
I played my college ball, Steve, not that it matters. Why would that be relevant on whether or not someone can coach? Is Dave Duncan a bad pitching coach because he was a catcher and barely played innings in the big show?
Here’s what I do know: Foreign talent is highly sought-after and is quickly lapping American talent in all aspects of the game, and they take absolutely no time off of training.
I also know a lot about the physiology of exercise and how it applies to the human body. ASMI’s first and foremost goals are to keep players healthy and uninjured. Good for them, and good for elite pro pitchers who have 92 coming out of their arm due to superior genetics.
The reality is this: 99.999% of people don’t have this and never will get there unless they train much harder than everyone else. As Wolforth says: If you do what everyone else does, you get what they get. And in this case, it’s a mediocre future in baseball if you’re lucky.
When you’re an average human with average height and fast-twitch muscle fiber, do you think training like everyone else with superior genetics is going to make you better?
And lastly, I think your comment was disrespectful and an appeal to authority fallacy. I had something here that was insulting to you, but I’m going to take the high road and just say that I think you should reconsider how you make your points.
Wow kyleb, Steven apologized even before you commented…his opinion counts too, and so does yours, I don’t think we want to run off readers just because the pissing contest is on. I didn’t even see an acceptance of his apology from you…honestly he did the right thing and so should you.
Relate to this?
I see no endictment of anything, a relating of his experience yes…no aspersions, just in his experience he has encountered that particular perspective.
I would bet you my lame duck (And yes Elvis is lame from a horse stepping on him) that Dave Duncan recommends time off.
I personally agree with him in his asertion because I have witnessed the load shift and heard very experienced (D-1 pitching coaches and professionals that I know personally) people say over again, rest is necessary. That doesn’t mean it’s sit in front of Mr X box eat chips and just pop up throwing in 30, 45, 60 days, they continue to work out and condition in other ways, Bob Shepherd (Former Asst. Head and Pitching Coach at UNF) called it “active rest”.
My son went from a Sr in hs where he had 10 cg’s over a 40 game season to a hundred game season where he at the end was appearing 1 to 2 times a week (Yes it was an "emergency situation…they were down to a total of 15 players), he was way up in the hi hundreds in innings…he way more than doubled his efforts over a much longer season…that load is very tough, and it doesn’t get less.
I’ve never heard a major league pitcher talk about throwing for the entire year, honestly I’ve heard this brought forth by Marshallites, calling that sort of rest “atrophy”, now…today, in the academies in Latin America, they do rest, the Japanese, don’t but I don’t see their talent or numbers over taking America…
I am no in depth student of kinesiology, but like Einstein, I try not to encumber my brain with facts that I can easily get from what I consider experts. Those folks whom I’ve chosen…(Pro players who’ve been there, coaches I know who have gotten people there, professional…as in Colo Rockies pitching coach Bobby Apadaka and Clint Hurdle, ortho surgeons who I’ve met, Steven Ellis, who was both a minor league pitcher and my friend) have had success in reaching those levels.
All of that doesn’t mean squat if someone can get a player to the pro’s in the manner you suggest Kyle, I just don’t see that as a path many have taken. Heck even if those poor latin kids do throw like that…we in America don’t have the same motivating factors they do…I mean you aren’t going to be instructing many in Seattle who don’t know where the next meal is coming from.
I respect you Kyle for the work you do and continue to do, the chip on your shoulder is inconsistent with the spirit you usually bring.
Oh Steven has an “up-yours” or two in him, he just is very slow to the trigger and as someone who has popped off before…sometimes you just want folks to know where you are coming from…before you whip out the creative adjectives 8)
One thing we can always count on from ya Some…you ain’t candy coating anything… :greengrin:
I would take about two months off in high school, so my arm could rest. It was also tough to get a place to throw in the winter. When i started to throw again I was so excited and pumped for the season, I think it was best for me.
In college we are going to take about 3 weeks off to rest the arm. I actually think that is perfect at that stage of the game. The season is going to be long and 3 weeks will get me fired up to throw again.