REQUEST: Don Sutton


#1

ive looked a lot and cant find video of sutton. my wind up is based on his.

don drysdale has similar mechanics


#2

Try this link:
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/la/history/season_pitching_records.jsp
I’m not sure if it has any videos of Sutton.
You could try searching for "videos of Don Sutton pitching"
on Google or another search engine.


#3

Sutton is another excellent example of a Hall Of Fame pitcher whose throwing technique involves a pronounced “elbow lift” into a W arm configuration. Yet despite having his elbow above the hand as he raises his arm, Sutton somehow never suffered from the evil injuries that the prophets of doom have been predicting will eventually happen to all those using these techniques.

Hopefully the Sutton example will encourage us to cross the W scapegoats off the Xmass list this year. Customers have reported that they don’t retrieve foul balls or make happy pets, and while beating on the W goats may make you feel better momentarily , the “Evil” arm injuries are never going to disapear.

Can’t resist commenting on Mr. Octobers “never get cheated” hack. Nobody went to the concession stand when this guy was due up. His K’s were more entertaining than his HR’s!

May Santa put a little “intent” into your sons stocking! :slight_smile:


#4

well from the video provided it looks like his elbow never goes above the shoulder and his shoulders delay rotation until his arm is up further, the inverted w isnt bad in and of itself but since it causes the arm to lay back harder if the shoulders rotate before the arm is ready this is where the problems occur, but since suttons shoulders delay until the arm is up that timing problem is nulled. and the inverted L isnt a guarenteed injury but it greatly increases the likeliness of injury depending on the seriousness of the timing problem.


#5

So what do you guys think-
is the inverted “w” good or bad?


#6

[quote=“pitcherman95”]well from the video provided it looks like his elbow never goes above the shoulder …[/quote]Despite what some have said in the past about this, nobody’s elbow stays up above the shoulder during the extremes of external humeral rotation.


#7

I agree that, although Sutton lifts with his elbow, he never does raise it above the level of his shoulder. And, yes it is true that no pitcher’s elbow stays up above shoulder level during maximal humeral rotation, the act of rotating it from such a position is much more stressful for most individuals’ arms (possibly not everyones’ arms though).


#8

yea, but when it does go over the elbow in the w shape, even tho a pitcher isnt in external rotation it still stretches the labrum which isnt good.


#9

[quote=“pitcherman95”]yea, but when it does go over the elbow in the w shape, even tho a pitcher isnt in external rotation it still stretches the labrum which isnt good.[/quote]Stretches the labrum???


#10

maybe stretch wasnt the right word, but anyway the labrum allows your shoulder to complete a very wide range of motions, however when that range is tested, like when an inverted w is made where the elbow excedes the height of the shoulder it puts stress on the labrum, not the actual throw, but when the arm is lifted by the elbow up high.


#11

[quote=“CardsWin”]So what do you guys think-
is the inverted “w” good or bad?[/quote]

if it takes the elbow over the shoulder and/or creates a timing problem, i say bad, but like in suttons case, it stays level or below the elbows and his shouders dont rotate until his arm is ready so there is no timing problem.


#12

pitcherman95-
do you throw with the inverted “w”?


#13

[quote=“pitcherman95”]if it takes the elbow over the shoulder and/or creates a timing problem, i say bad, but like in suttons case, it stays level or below the elbows and his shouders dont rotate until his arm is ready so there is no timing problem.[/quote]There’s no evidence supporting any of this. It’s Chris O’Leary’s theory which has been met with much resistance because of the lack of real evidence.


#14

well if the arm is not up and ready to throw, like if it is horizontal, not upright, your arm lays back harder, this puts stress on the elbow and shoulder.

and if you just make an inverted w, not while pitching, just stand there and lift up your elbow as high as you can you can feel a pinching like feeling in your shoulder, no imagine that 100 times every five days along with the actual throwing motion itself,

dont just dismiss what i say, think about it and the possiblity that i could be right.


#15

[quote=“CardsWin”]pitcherman95-
do you throw with the inverted “w”?[/quote]

no i do not


#16

[quote=“pitcherman95”]well if the arm is not up and ready to throw, like if it is horizontal, not upright, your arm lays back harder, this puts stress on the elbow and shoulder.[/quote]The laying back of the arm harder is something I’ve always thought to be potentially problematic. Operative term being “thought”. No evidence. Theory. This is my point. You’d have to go back a number of years to some of my discussions with Chris about this to see that I hypothesized about this very thing, in contrast to what Chris was saying about rotation with the elbow up there. It’s all theory and we need to be very careful about that. There are a lot of impressionable young members here who may not be able to see the difference between what sounds logical and obvious but does not have a supportable basis in fact.

[quote=“pitcherman95”]…and if you just make an inverted w, not while pitching, just stand there and lift up your elbow as high as you can you can feel a pinching like feeling in your shoulder, …[/quote]I feel no pinching in my shoulder when doing this. In fact, there’s only so far that you can actually lift them laterally by changing the angle of the humerus in the glenoid. The entire arm/scapular complex rotates to make the elbow seem like it’s above the shoulder but, with respect to the humerus in the glenoid, the angle may not be what it looks like on the outside. It just might actually be perfectly aligned because of the range of motion of the scapula.

[quote=“pitcherman95”]…dont just dismiss what i say, think about it and the possiblity that i could be right.[/quote]I ALWAYS start with the possibility that a person’s comments are 100% correct. If I don’t, I haven’t heard what you said. I then determine what my response might be. Do I agree? Is it fact or hypothesis? What evidence is there? That’s what this is all about. What we all say on this, or any other board will always be challenged if there is no accompanying evidence.


#17

How funny that arguement is…just really (And I don’t mean it personally).
Pitcherman…these guys (The ones who make the bigs with this inverted w"curse") are so much better than all the geniouses who preach against it…THEY MADE AND ARE PLAYING IN THE BIGS!!! I’m sorry to shout but this message NEVER SEEMS TO GET THROUGH!!! Are you in the bigs? Is O’Leary? 300 humans on earth at any given moment can claim they do that actively for a living…what fraction of the population of earth is that? You say it “Causes injury” but can’t prove it medically or scientifically…you would turn a kid who, for no other reason…despite success, away from that path because they throw a way you don’t like…it’s just stupid…dumb, it makes no sense…if…if a guy makes it through all of the trials to become a major leaguer and is only there for a second because of injury…guess what? It’s as far as HIS body could go…you won’t make Strasburg better, you’d never had made Drysdale better or any other pitcher “better” by changing any aspect of their delivery…what you would potentially do is short circuit a positive run at the bigs…if the “Cursed W” bothers you so much…train 6 yr olds to not do it…everyone else is on their way and you might just as well bark at the moon and get better response.

If a pitcher is equal and opposite at footstrike what is the “timing” problem? This is O’Leary bs…look for yourself Pitcherman…there are so many different ways professional pitchers get to that spot (E&O @ footstrike) that the absurdity of the comment speaks for itself…
Timing problem…just nebulous enough to sound like it means “something”…meaningless enough to mean “nothing”.
Could you please describe to me the manifestations of a “true” timing issue…what will we see when a guy who repeats his mechs like this and delivers the ball over a 20 year career…time after time…for a Hall of Fame run? What is Don Suttons “problem”? Or Drysdales? Even O’Learys new poster child Strasburg…what exactly is his “timing” issue and how does it manifest? And before you throw out his other pet term “rushing”…please define how that manifests itself also.


#18

Very well said, jd–“might as well bark at the moon and get a better response”–I was laughing out loud at that one, buddy, and almost ejected some of this morning’s coffee through my nose…


#19

[quote=“jdfromfla”]
(The ones who make the bigs with this inverted w"curse") are so much better than all the geniouses who preach against it…THEY MADE AND ARE PLAYING IN THE BIGS!!! [/quote]

so if they made it too the bigs by making an inverted w does that make it the correct way to throw? just because they did it and for them it worked, doesnt mean its automatically right, people can do things wrong and still be successful.


#20

Maybe a more compelling question, pitcherman, is:

Because the “inverted w” has been singled out as the root of all pitching evil by a self-proclaimed guru (who is actually an avid internet marketer/spammer without any baseball background but who is fully dedicated to the hope that you and others will eventually believe that he knows what he’s talking about and praise him as a knowledgeable force in baseball)…again, because this self-absorbed marketer has said it’s bad, does that mean that the elite pitchers whose mechanics look like that really are inefficient, bad, more injury-prone, etc than other elite pitchers?

This is one of the major problems with the internet—charlatans and frauds can sometimes manipulate naive youngsters into believing almost anything.