Question....

I have a 17 year old RH pitcher with good velocity who has a pitch that is released like a slider. The pitch arrives most of the time just like a bullet. IE it shows a dot in the very center of the ball and is rotating like a football spiral. I know what a slider looks like and the release and spin is tilted more upright. This pitch doesn’t have the tilt, it is spinning just like a rifle bullet. How can we induce a little movement? Grip? finger snap? The pitch will move nicely sometimes but the pitcher doesn’t know what he did and I have tried some corrections but don’t desire to complicate the fellow any because he is accurate. The pitcher has a strong arm and is the 2nd year starting QB for a large successful Florida HS football team. The pitcher has a 10:00 release with elbow a little below the shoulder, 6’2", 180lbs.

What you are describing is the much-hyped gyroball and you are dealing with a possible consequences of the pitch: minimal movement.

A rifle spin is great for bullets and artillery shells that you don’t want to move off of the line of the trajectory (that’s why they are induced to spin that way), but bad for pitches since they come in on a rail.

I would suggest pronating the forearm further through the release point so as to change the axis on which the ball is rotating. That way it will move more. You could also try gripping the ball slightly off-center or using differential finger pressure (ala Greg Maddux) to get the ball to move more.

he’s describing a gyroball? I don’t think so. It’s nothing more than a flat slider.

And why would he pronate a slider? That’s like the opposite of what you should do.

My guess is that the guy should experminent with curling/cocking his wrist earlier than he currently does before release. Sounds like, and I’m just guessing, he’s relying on a last second wrist flip to get the proper break on the ball. If he has his wrist more cocked before relase he should be getting better leverage.

He hooks the ball during delivery. From video his PAS forearm bounces to a palm down then a little toward 3rd position. It’s weird, sometimes the ball sweeps inside/high to outside low across the plate with the same delivery. When he throws the bullet the pitch is straight. When it has the sweep it’s usually off the plate because he doesn’t adjust for the sweep.It looks to me that he is rolling the ball off the inside of his index finger like a football pass. I can’t see the spin most of the time, it’s tight unless it’s perfect like a bullet. I realize a little tilt would induce the sweep but not exactly sure how to convey the proper action. The fellow hasn’t played any BB before this year never the less pitched. I have tried to get him to throw a straight 4 seam backspin fastball but he hasn’t been able to. He always releases with the tight bullet spiral.

Can you post any video of him throwing?

It does sound like he’s bouncing between a gyroball and a slider (maybe a pronation slider).

Guys, I think there is a misunderstanding of the Gyroball. What Will Carroll and others here are discribing is not the gyroball as taught by Kazushi Tezuka, the inventor of the pitch. I personally know him and have worked as his interpreter. As well my son and I worked him in Tokyo on various occasions.

The spin alone does not constitute the gyroball. You can get a similar spin while putting a force on the ball that will cause it to move.

The gyroball is a natural result of what Tezuka calls “doublespin” mechanics. Which incorprates motions in the mechanics which no one in the US is teaching. If you understand the following terms and how to apply them then you will be on your way to being able to throw the true gyroball.

Edge
C-arch
Drag Line
Scratch Motion
Loop Motion
Spiral Release
Rotating Axis Pivot Point
Targeting

Regards,
Sigma

Can you get him to raise his elbow a bit? If so he’ll get more downward movement and less chance of blowing out his elbow and/or shoulder. Arm action with the the knobby point of the elbow in line with, or slightly above, the top of the armpit is safer and more effective for taking advantage of the downward plane given to the pitcher (the mound).

“the gyroball as taught by Kazushi Tezuka”

A New Guru!!!
Well at least it looks like he’s all about teaching something.
I wonder how much the market place can handle? Well he has an edge already, he’s foriegn and he hasn’t started bashing other Guru’s yet :shock:
It does look like a whoop-de-do of a pitch. I wonder if it’ll become the new split finger, or screwgie…

[b][i]The gyroball is a natural result of what Tezuka calls “doublespin” mechanics. Which incorprates motions in the mechanics which no one in the US is teaching. If you understand the following terms and how to apply them then you will be on your way to being able to throw the true gyroball.

Edge
C-arch
Drag Line
Scratch Motion
Loop Motion
Spiral Release
Rotating Axis Pivot Point
Targeting [/i][/b]

Is that the Websters definition or “new” Tazuka defined term?
Sounds like you are talking to Kung Fu…"Apply them…then you (Grasshopper) will be on your way to “true” Gyroball"
Whew! :wink:
Seriously Sigma, bring all you have about this. You will find willing listeners (Myself very much included). Define the terms, lay out what he advocates.
What brought you to meet up with him?
How do you see the differences in how we play the sport and the Japanese?
Let us know what you’ve seen, we hardly ever hear about the thoughts and mentality of Japanese baseball, except for the few college coaches that have worked in an Olympic capacity. It would seem to me from a conditioning stand point we and they are “light years” apart, can you possibly talk on that subject?
I hope you don’t take offense at my poking fun at your post, none was meant.

What I’ve done in the past that worked well of getting a player to stop cutting a baseball and get their hand behind the ball…

Color one-half of the baseball with a black or red sharpie pen. If he grips the pitch, 4-seam. Color the left side of the 4-seamer, so when he throws it…if thrown properly, the ball will look red and white. This creates a very clear distinction between the two colors. If the blurr together on a throw, the pitcher it cutting the ball. Do the same to a 2-seam baseball.

JD,

I know that you were just playing around, but I don’t claim to be a “guru”

To answer your question, I met Tezuka in 2000. I have an export business and on a trip to Japan I found one of his books purchased it because of the detail that it had. Later I called Beta Endorphin to ask a couple of questions because I do not read Japanese to the native speaker level. I spoke with Tezuka and he invited me to visit him on my next trip to Japan. We became friends and in Dec of 2000 I took my son Robert to work with Tezuka and one of his assistants Mr. Sakaibara. After several times doing this Tezuka and I discussed making his video course available in English. That has been on the back burner because very few people up to now have taken Japanese baseball seriously.

If you were to look at the credits in the back of Tezuka’s book on batting called “Batting no Gokui” you will find both my name and my sons name. I just mentioned this to let you know that I am not blowing smoke

http://www.beta-e.co.jp/p06/p06.html is the link to Tezuka’s sight were you can find this book. (in Japanese only)

As far as the gyroball is concerned, I wll state that it is very effective if used intelegently. No one can throw only one pitch and get away with it.

Some of the advantages are

Deception of the speed: It does not go any faster than a backspin 4 seam, possibly slightly slower. But the big difference is that there is more drag on a 4 seam backspin ball than on a gyroball. That means that the gyroball does not slow down as quickly as a backspin ball, therefore throwing off the timing of the batter.

Spin: unlike a cutter or slider which often have a spiral spin the pressure on the gyroball is toward the plate and not cutting through the ball which causes the cutter on slider to break.

Rotation: On tradional pitches, a batter w/ a good eye can pick up the spin and recognize the pitch. But for example, Robert throws a 4 seam gyro , 2 seam gyro, doublespin slider, reverse gyro and a doublespin curve. Every pitch has a spiral type spin except to curve. So if the batter looks for spin to determine the pitch he will have to concentrate more by picking up the 2 seam vs 4 seam spin , spin direction etc. That is difficult because your eyes tend to see a dot in the center of the ball more so than the directon of the spin or the exact location of the dot.

The spin of the gyroball also forces the batter to get better contact with the ball in order to get a solid hit. Don’t fool yourself, any pitch that is well hit will go a long way. You just increase your odds for pop ups and ground balls. The gyroball is not necessarily a “strikeout pitch” it is a ground ball and pop up pitch.

We can go over some of the other things that I mentioned the other day but it would take a book to cover it if done all at one time.

Have a nice one,
Sigma

Thank you for the help. I have tried to work with video and will keep trying. I bought Animation Shop and installed a Firewire card to load Videos but it keeps crashing my computer. After many hours talking with “Andy” or “Susan” in India, and having the Dell Tech fellow troubleshoot my computer at home still no luck. Will post video when this problem is cured. If that joyous day does ever occur.

Sigma, your post was about as clear as mud to me.

[quote=“sigma”]Some of the advantages are

Deception of the speed: It does not go any faster than a backspin 4 seam, possibly slightly slower. But the big difference is that there is more drag on a 4 seam backspin ball than on a gyroball. That means that the gyroball does not slow down as quickly as a backspin ball, therefore throwing off the timing of the batter.[/quote]
Your wording here is a bit confusing. You said the gyroball is “possibly slower” than a backspin 4-seam but then you give reasons why it is faster by saying there is more drag drag on the 4-seam and that the gyroball does not slow down as quickly. So it seems the gyroball would be faster than the 4-seam. But I’m guessing the reason you said the gyroball is posibly slower is because force imparted around the ball instead of through it when it is thrown. Correct?

This is really unclear to me. What is a “spiral spin”? When you say “pressure”, are you talking about the force applied to the ball by the hand or by the atmosphere as the ball flies through the air? Can you explain how “toward the plate” and “cutting through the ball” are different?

You listed “spin” and “rotation” as separate items. What’s the difference?

As for the list of terms you included in your previous post, “drag line” is the only one I’ve heard of.

anyone here watch baseball games? gyroball = hanging slider. hanging slider = what? homer.

a hanging slider is basicly a slider without enough tilt to break. that gyroball pitch without any movement people are talking about is probably just the biggest meat pitch in baseball history. i’d rather lobe the ball underhand.

"I don’t claim to be a “guru”
I meant the Japanese fellow, not you.

Well as to sharing more info, take your time, throw in a bit here and there. Centerfield is one of the posters on this site that has done a ton of pretty good research on the pitch…which is all good with me, like I said I’m all ears (I believe most of the regular posters would be interested in all you care to explain).

I still would also love to hear all you can tell us about Japanese baseball in general. Doesn’t get enough air time for sure. It would be nice to get a good picture.

[quote=“jdfromfla”]I still would also love to hear all you can tell us about Japanese baseball in general. Doesn’t get enough air time for sure. It would be nice to get a good picture.[/quote]I’ll second that.

Roger,

Sorry for the confusion.

Regarding the speed I was trying to address two issues. Speed out of the hand. You as and individual pitcher would most likely have more velocity out of the hand with a backspin pitch than you as a pitcher would have throwing the gyroball. Because you will have more force on the ball from behind the ball than you will from the side.

The second issue is the rate of deceleration of the pitches are different. A backspin ball will slow slightly more quickly than a gyroball.

Example: 4 seam back spin out of hand = 90 / at the plate = 87 (hypothetical numbers)
4 seam gyro out of hand = 90 / at the plate = 88

Basically if both pitches were thrown at the same speed out of the hand the gyroball would get to the plate more quickly than a backspin ball thrown at the same speed out of the hand, so the timing for the batter changes. Please understand that I personally do not have any data on hand, although Tezuka does, so I used hypothetical numbers for you to visualize the point.

As far as pressure is concerned I was talking about pressure on the ball from the hand.

spin = rotation. I meant to use spin and rotation interchangeably.

If I am still not clear please let me know.

Sigma