Hey there
First of all, thank you for all the comments.
I’ve been working on the comments you gave me, and i hope there is some progress made. I’ve also got some comments from my pitching coach about that i need to release the ball more in front of me, and that i need to keep my shoulers more level.
Here are my other posts, so you can compare them.
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http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14245&highlight=
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here is my new vid:
Thank you in advance.
I don’t see much difference yet but it is still early. It takes time to change your mechanics. Try driving your hips forward and keep your leg from dropping for just a a couple of 10ths of a second.
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I love the way you rotate around your left leg during follow through. This will help keep your shoulder sound especially if your get better pronation after release.
First of all you obvioulsy have worked hard on your mechanics. Remember that it is always beneficial for any instructor to see different angles of a pitchers mechanics. With that being said from the angle you provided things look pretty good however there is always room for improvement…you know this becuase I would bet you work hard and have a passions…AWESOME!
A couple real simple suggestions to you. Relax more at the shoulders and arms. You look a little mechanical when you are coming to your set position…breath…relax and loosen up on your top side.
Also and it is harder to tell from the angle you provided but you have good balance. I would bet a dime to a dollar that you can get a better LOAD by working on a tad higher leg lift as long as it does not affect your optimal balance. Generally speaking for the pitchers that can do it, the higher the leg lift the better, within reason…I always use Nolan Ryan as the perfect example. Obviously one of the greatest of all time and also one of the higher leg lifts however perhaps too high for most pitchers.
Also a view from the plate would be good because it looks like you are swinging your front hip/leg open just a tad rather then driving towards the plate better…Im being pretty picky on this because again it looks like you have a good base of sound mechanics…if you are swinging it too much and or too early you are loosing core torque and messing with direction a bit. With that being said it looks as though you upper half is staying pretty good in terms of direction though…
When anaylizing video of pitchers I always feel that the four looks should be the one you gave (back side)…chest side, view from behind the pitcher and view from behind the plate…I am also big on being able to watch the path of the ball after release for several pitches each of the same type.
Keep working hard!
Off of your other video post in my opinion you have your lead foot too far out away from your body. This can create too much swinging of the lead leg, the loss of torque and making it harder to achieve the proper direction as well as getting out front/staying directional.
I can’t see this in your back side video.
Also you have obviously gotten advice from several on your mechanics and what to work on. My advice to that is do some of your own research, don’t out think things especially in game situations and do not become a robot who is trying to have absolutely perfect mechanics.
Key things to consider moving forward…relax, breath, be loose, balance, back side focus not front side because the back dictates more of what happens out front then vice versa…direction and release point…throw down hill…
Just some of my wooden nickels worth of advice.
You may find it easier to get your hips going faster sooner by starting with your feet slightly closer together. As it is now during leg lift you make a slight “negative” move toward 2nd base which must be counteracted before the body can move toward the target.
Also after you’ve reached maximum leg lift notice how much your head moves down before it moves toward the target. Some downward movement of the head can be acceptable but IMO yours is excessive because you’re changing posture. It slows your delivery and forces you to spend valuable energy converting the downward movement into forward movement. Ideally your head would move only toward the target and on a downward plane that follows the slope of the mound until release.
To minimize the downward head movement you might want to experiment with setting up in a more athletic posture with more bend in the knees and a slight bend at the waist- think free throw stance or batting stance. This will place your body in a posture closer to the one you eventually achieve following the drop of your head and initial forward movement.
So to summarize start with your feet closer together to minimize the rearward body movement and assume a more athletic posture to reduce the downward movement of the head. These adjustments will likely affect your timing so I wouldn’t suggest working on anything else until you’re comfortable with the improved setup and posture. I think you have some room for improvement in how you use your lower half but with a better setup and posture those issues may improve by themselves.
One final thing that may help bring this together. In your previous post someone posted a video of Tom House working with players on the Hershiser Drill. Starting at about the 30 second mark House corrects a kid on his posture from being too upright down into the proper position. Practicing from the crossover setup position is also a good way to get the feel for eliminating the rearward movement. Good stuff to look at.
Also stay open minded and be ok with what you feel is working for you because you will get a ton of varying advice from different coaches/instructors.
If you have not checked out (chrisoleary.com) you should…I am not affiliated with his site in any way but there is a ton of solid info on there, a lot of free info as well.
Mr. Oleary absolutely knows what he is talking about clear across the board in his approaches to pitching as well as hitting mechanics.
In my humble opinion one needs to go backwards some in order to create load prior to going forward.
Without load in the core many things can fall by the way side.
Being in as much of a relaxed position as possible pre-pitch is essential.
Check out videos of major league pitchers and see how many of them are squating down at all while they are in the set position.
Hope this helps and again I stress that regardlesso of thevenue or forum one will always be presented with many different approaches, techniques and philosophies as it relates to pitching. Some things work for others while those same things may not work for you and or won’t make sense regardless of how one looks at it.
Keep working hard kid and stay open minded…DON’T BE A ROBOT!
[quote]In my humble opinion one needs to go backwards some in order to create load prior to going forward.
Without load in the core many things can fall by the way side.
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Most base stealers like it when a pitcher’s first move is away from the target as well. It means they’re slow to the plate. You won’t see too many major leaguers with a move away from the target as they lift their leg. If they do it is only a slight move and it is likely corrected and they’re moving toward the target before top of leg lift.
It is possible to load the hips/core without the entire body moving to the rear. In the videos below notice the direction of the stride leg as it comes up through leg lift. The knee is coming up and across the body, closing the hips as the entire body is moving toward the target. The OP could do a better job of this but I didn’t want to overload him with too much info. Once his timing adjusts to a more appropriate starting position he can then go to the next step.
One of the great things about the Hershiser Drill is that it trains both the forward motion of the body and the loading of the hips.
[quote]Check out videos of major league pitchers and see how many of them are squating down at all while they are in the set position.
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As for posture it isn’t about “squatting down” as much as it is about establishing and maintaining a consistent posture from setup through release. Each pitcher does this in a different way- some crouch while some can be upright. Typically the stronger the player the more upright they can be. Youth pitchers have a tough time starting from an upright position because rarely are they strong enough in the core to maintain that posture. In that case why not start them in a posture they can maintain rather than hoping they can make a consistent mid-delivery adjustment to the posture that their strength allows.
As I stated originally I suggest “experimenting” with different degrees of athletic posture to find the one that’s right. A little downward head movement is fine as long as it doesn’t slow down the delivery and result in a change of posture.
Here’s a guy who did pretty well with no rearward movement. Although he starts tall he maintains that posture through release. Notice how close his feet are together. Thanks to laflippen for his informative youtube site.
Although this guy starts wide he’s moving toward home well before top of leg lift.
Here’s another guy from the windup that loads pretty well as he’s moving toward the target.
You bring up some very valid points to consider and as I am sure you would agree it is always nice to bounce things back and fourth between people who are knowlegeable and passionate in regards to the game.
First of all Mr. Hershiser’s drill is a good one. I also do not dispute your comments pertaining to the head moving on a downward plane. However in my humble opinion there are better ways to accomplish this in teaching techniques then telling a young pitcher to bend at the waste or bending of the knees…in most cases.
In my opinion rearward body movement to a small degree can be beneificial in accomplishing two very key things that young pitchers have trouble with.
First of all balance over the pivot foot and secondly helping them to gain some momentum going forward by creating slight movement backwards initially…and I stress slight which this particular young pitcher may be doing a bit more then slight but in my opinion it is not excessive. Besides I see from the view point he provided which by the way would be my least favorite of three other better view points to watch his mechanics…I see that he is getting to and maintaining a pretty decent balance point for a young pitcher and that is critical. From what I have seen of one video clip and one pitch I would bet a dime to a dollar like most younger kids he would struggle with some type of a balance point if he was to attempt learning a controlled fall to the plate too soon in his mechancis.
The video clips you have provided are awesome and I have reviewed 1000’s of clips of big league hitters and pitchers because that is a supplemental part of how I earn money outside of coaching and giving lessons. Therefore I have seen all these guys you offered up on video many times.
To offer up as a comparison to what a young player should be doing as compared to a 6’11" tall and fall Randy Johnson is in my opinion not completely true and correct. After all regardless of how tall a kid is how many young hurlers can get to a proper balance position by using the tall and fall technique? Not many.
Brian Wilson is another example of a tall and fall approach to some extent but again perhaps the number one downfall for young pitchers other then in general rushing every thing is lack of or absolutely no balance point.
Roy Oswalt…I guess all I can say is if you feel as though you are comfortable teaching a kid to take this mechanical approach then more power to you. I honestly would not even attempt to do this but perhaps as I become more experienced in my seeking of knowledge and experience I would feel comfortable taking this task on.
Tim Lincecum. I would not advise anyone teaching a young pitcher to throw like him. He is an absolute stud but there is still plenty of debate out there pertaining to whether or not he is going to hold up physically with how he pitches. Simply stated he is a freak of nature so to speak in that he is able to do what he does by using the mechanics he does. Plus he has been working on these techniques since he was a very young kid.
Simply stated in all the videos you provided each one of these guys starts at as soon as the leg is lifted or gets to a solid enough of a balance point in relation to their back knee being over their pivot foot even if only for a frame or two in order to achieve balance. I do not believe most amatuer pitchers are going to be able to achieve what these guys do in the way that they do it.
Personally I don’t think the very high majority of pitchers below decent level college athletics who have solid pitching coaches and good athletisim can achieve what you are suggeesting in terms of having some assemblence of balance at the right time in the delivery by falling forward so to speak.
Then again…to concur with you I do feel it is a diservice to teach any young player to do things that are different from works at and is used at about a 90% clip in the professional ranks.
If one teaches sound little league hitting or what they beleive to be sound high school pitching for that one kid in 10,000 who can make it they are are probably screwing up his chances.
Simply stated there is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching it the right way or the way that 90% of big league players do things. However there are certainly happy mediums here as well.
For instance I would not advise teaching a young hitter to hit how Ichiro or say Ryan Howard hit at times because it just flat out won’t work…then again how these two guys hit (at times) is not something that a very high majority of other big league players can do much less athletes below the MLB ranks.
Also to prove I agree with you further… there are many former and current big league players who would tell anyone if they had been taught things or listened to the teachings that were flat out wrong when they were younger they would have never made it. Instead they did what they felt was working for them and obviously had huge amounts of natural ability.
All Im saying is video is sweet and an awesome teaching tool but to suggest to a young inexperienced pitcher that he should try to achieve balance but still go forward with zero backwards load or a limited load back or to not come straight up lets say to a balanced point before going forward is going to be very hard for most of these kids to achieve.
Tall and fall does not work for many due to a plethora of reasons. Espcially at levels certainly below college because this age group of athletes are not strong enough to get an adequate balance point and correctly stay strong enough on the front side to come falling out of any mechanical approach.
My point is there is nothing wrong with a minimal load back to help achieve some sense of balance and to also generate force going forward. After all another aspect that young inexperienced pitchers can’t normally properly accomplish is being strong enough on the front side to be in any thing but complete control…a controlled fall for most young pitchers is going to be very hard to teach and get them to do in my humble opinion.
Thanks for your insite. I mean absolutely no disprespect and you again brought up some very key points that I absolutely agree with. I am simply just giving you my humble opinions and view points.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I’m certainly not advocating copying the entire mechanics of any pitcher I’ve shown, nor do I think youth pitcher are strong enough to do so, but there are bits and pieces that can be taken from each that are applicable to pitchers of all ages. Those guys each demonstrate the concept of getting going to the target early in the delivery which to me would be an aid to the OP. I put Oswalt in there just to show that height has nothing to do with the concept.
Youth pitchers may not have the strength to move as quickly or forward as soon as professionals but if a group of 8yo’s can learn to eliminate rearward movement I assume most youth pitchers can.
Let me ask you this. Is it easier for a youth pitcher to lift his leg, move slightly away from the target, stop his rearward momentum and come to a balance point, and then move his entire body from this stopped position toward the target- all while standing on one foot- or would it be easier to initiate movement in only one direction- toward the target- while standing essentially on both feet?
I for one think most any kid can be taught to eliminate rearward movement and it starts with proper setup at the beginning. It may not be as fast or pretty as a pro guy but is certainly a lot less complicated than moving one way, stopping and moving the other while on one foot.
Here is some vid of my favorite non-mlb guy loading without rearward movement…
I’ve always viewed pitcher development as a forward looking endeavor, thusly it would, as a rule, serve the most benefit to project the training to the next level (Not being a professional myself). So though, for just an example, it would be very easy to teach a kid that arm wrenching spinner curve you see kids, at ridiculously young ages, throwing…you certainly wouldn’t do it with any thought at all for the kids future prospects…so if, even a minor torso tilt in a rearward motion might be considered a “flaw” by a college or pro scout, (UNLESS the kid is a Lincecum-esque in his own right…iow A person at whatever level has more potential harm than help by getting in between that person and his motion), I wouldn’t feel good about “adding” that at a mature point.
All that said if this kid wants and can only look forward to playing and competing in the Dutch leagues level, well whatever works best without causing himself injury (I wish you the grandest success and as much fun as you can stand for as long as you care to be involved…this is how a baseball tradition begins and I envy you being there…being a part) but for a kid on the verge…maybe not so much.
This is the problem with advice on the net, context is generally lacking…generally… 
Ya’ll are very nice and polite… 8) :lol:
Great discussion.
Minor League…first of all great discussion; I love this stuff and thank you for helping me to remain open minded as well as conitinue learning the game.
In response to your post let me first say that I don’t believe I mentioned any thing to do with “stopping” if I did that was my mistake and if I inferred that it would also have been a mistake.
Before I continue let me offer up these examples as part of my opinion regarding all of this since you gave selected big league pitchers as examples.
Clay Bucholz, Johan Santana, Jeff Supan and Cliff Lee are four guys that are regarded by many in professional ranks as well as outside of that arena who have superior mechancis; top 1 or 2% in the professional game. Not one of these guys starts forward right away.
Now of course we could start discussing slide steps and we would open up a whole new can of topic here but lets just stick with what we both have started.
By contrasting comparison to these four guys I use as examples Chris Carpenter and Scott Williamson. These two guys have arguably some of the worst pitching mechanics in professional baseball. Both of them start forward nearly right away, their leg lifts are still trying to be completed as they are about half way to front side landing point. In my opinion as well as many others part of their problems with slot and a long list of other things is due to the fact that they are getting out front far too quickly.
Now obviously we are not talking about comparing Carpenter and Williamson to say what Oswalt does but all three of them basically do the same thing as it pertains to what you suggest pitchers should do and that is start forward first. Simply stated Carpenter and Williamson are no Roy Oswalt and they can’t do it. If they can’t do it with the guidance of their professional coaches then I would imagine youth players in general with the levels of instruction they receive more often then not would struggle not in merely doing it because anyone can do it but having proper slot and front side mechanics if they were doing it.
If were to talk about the stretch lets look at Any Petite. He could in no way shape or form have one of the best pick off moves baseball ever seen if he started forward first from his stretch position…he goes back to go forward…excluding again of course slide steps.
Reiterating there is not stop at any point in time during a pitcher’s motion even at balance point.
To eliminate rearward movement potentially creates many problems and if that is not the case difficulties moving forward espcially for young athletes who are not muscle mass coordinated enough to pull this technique off.
In reference to your question let me break down my side of things this way.
It is easy for a youth pitcher to lift his leg in a controlled manner moving slightly away from target to help him get balanced and go backwards to help him gain momentum eventually to go forward. Load.
Again this approach helps a pitcher especially young one in getting to some type of balance position before the wheels all fall off and he starts drifting and falling to the plate with perhaps his arm dragging and potentially many other things.
At the balance point there is absolutely no stop and the moving of the body towards the the target is a directional approach that again is assisted by gaining some type of balance if due to no other reason then helping to not rush and achieve the optimal directional path (no flying open) towards the target.
With the immediately aforementioned being stated from a stretch position in order to lift the lead leg off the grond even one inch unless using a slide step the pitchers weight abslutely has to transger back wards. The higher the leg lift the more backwards load that can be created and yes too much is not a good thing either…my point is simple physics…if one stands on both feet regardless if they are close together or far apart if they lift one of them off the ground their weight will transfer to the one that stays on the ground.
Unless as you suggest they immediately start forward to the plate when their front foot comes off the ground which to me would be a slide step. However if they immediately start forward with their upper half while using a leg lift in my humble opinion the problem that has been created is as follows; you have a leg lift that is going up and probably back to some degree yet you have an upper half that is going forward…the two are fighting one another…doing this will ultimately have some affects in most cases on slot, and the hand speed needed at separation in order to pull this off…asking a young kid to do this is going to be difficult.
Regarding your comment “…and then move his entire body from this stopped position toward the target all the while standing on one foot or would it be easier to initiate movement in only one direction towards the target while standing essentially on both feet.”
The whole premise behind pitching is to move ones body forward towards the target and unless we are using a slide step this begins to take place at varying points while the pitcher has only one foot on the ground.
In answer to your question yes it would be easier to initiate movement in only one direction but with that come other poor mechanical variables that can take place…especially in young pitchers…arm lagging behind because they are unable to speed it up and get into slot…hips flying open, torso flying open, landing too short, not getting out front…depending on the pitcher many things could negatively happen…then again depedning on the pitcher they all may work even if the pitcher had achieved zero balance at any point in their delivery. However at say high school and below levels the likelihood of kids being able to properly achieve sound mechanics is in my opinion going to be very difficult.
What is easy to me is…teach a pitcher a smooth and controlled leg lift to a maximuim height with the kneee that pitcher is capable of no lower then the waist. Simply in order to attain any type of a balance position there need not be a stop but especially in young pitchers it is of my belief that they set themselves up for failure on the front side if their leg is still coming up while they are falling, moving or drifting forward.
All the pitchers you used as examples are experienced enough to keep their back knee over their pivot foot for a frame or two in order to achieve their varying balance points…this is extrememly hard to do.
All the pitchers I used as examples who have the best mechanics in the game at the professional level all go backwards to go forwards. They get to a balance point stay there in relation to where their back shoulder his, their back knee and still manage to get the momentum going from back to balance and then to front without stopping.
In regards to stopping I would never teach this but for a youth player who was struggling to achieve balance and was doing other things wrong becuase of no balance I would literally rather have then stop for a split second then be all out of sorts falling towards the plate because they had no balance at all to begin with.
I certainly understand with and agree to many of your points but my confusion lies in the fact that it seems to me that achieving balance of any sort in a delivery would not be something you agree on. Therefore you are in a sense throwing out the window what has been a mainstay of pitching for years and is still a cornerstone of pitching at any level.
The question I would like to respecftully pose to you so I can better understand where you are coming from is…what would you teach a pitcher to do from the wind up position in terms of their leg lift, balance point if there is one, the initial position of the hands, the position of the hands apon separation and perhaps most importantly how would you teach the wind up to a pitcher that is long downwards out of the glove with his arm action…after all this type of pitcher in merely going foward right away towards the target is going to have to play a ton of catch up to even get close to slot because his front side will be ready to do every thing and his arm will not even be close.
Also is it easier to teach a pitcher especially young one to “speed up their hands” in order to play catch up with their body or would it be easier to teach and more importantly easier for the young hurler to grasp if they were taught to go back a bit, to stay back a bit but not stop and get every thing in order before they start a front side explosion to the plate?
Again man I love the discussion I really do. I look forward to any and all of your comments…thanks for loving the game and giving back to it like I do!
jdfromfla…I appreciate you wishing me grand success and as much fun as I can stand for as long as I can stand it as well as to remain being involved. I also recognized your advice that I would perhaps be better served helping a kid with no chance to play after college rather then “not so much so” the kid who does.
Hey Im sure your background is absolutely outstanding and we are obviously not going to get into resumes on a forum.
With that being said your polite pot shots are probably a testament to what type of individual you may be; perhaps not. One should not read tone into the written word so I am simply going to read into what I read in terms of the words that were typed.
After all you said it yourself that interpretation in the written word can get lost and I think that is what may have happened here in regards to your post and shots as it relates to me regarding rearward movement.
Let me ask you this what do you think your young pitchers front leg is doing? In my humble Dutch League opinion it is going backwards to help him gain torque. If it is not going backwards what is it doing? I guess for the most part it is going relatively straight up but his foot is going back and his hip is rotating back so I guess to me in parts it is going backwards…rearward movement…now stick with me if you will and or have time to listen to my pauper approach.
Your boy in the video has a very good fundamental base and I am sure that when he gets drafted his pitching coach will look forward to improving his front side mechanics especially his lead leg.
Souly due to the shots you took without knowing one thing about me, what I do or my background/credentials I offer to you some friendly advice…
Before taking shots at someone on the board all be it in a polite way perhaps you should read all the threads and make sure you are interpreting what someone is saying at a level of 100% before you call them out so to speak.
If you are not 100% certain of what they are saying then perhaps it would be better if you asked them before making certain comments.
My points and defenses as they relate to this topic can probably be better understood if you read through things more clearly however I will somewhat clarify here in lamens terms for you.
One particular individual suggested that a pitchers first motion should be forward and that it was in a sense ok to be going forward while the leg lift was still being completed. I suggested among other things this would be a difficult approach to teach young pitchers.
This individual also all but said balance is not needed; after all how can much balance be acheived if one is simply going forward right away. You of all people should be able to understand that because your kid is doing far more what I would teach then what the guy I have been debating with would probably teach him.
No a pitcher does not need rearward movement to gain any thing but if one foot stays on the ground and the other comes off and they are not using a slide step common sense says that atleast part of their momentum movement would have to go backwards.
Perhaps you thought I meant a kids head should go backwards from his pivot foot i don’t know but if that was the case I would like to think that atleast some of what I was communicating would not be deemed as what would be contained on a little league parent forum on pitching mechanics.
With all this being said Im new to the site and I certainly look forward to gaining more insite from you. Additionally speaking if your player gets drafted and when he makes it to AA I will look forward to seeing him on video as I fumble about trying to make a living working in a few different avenues as it pertains to the great game of baseball.
Good luck to you this coming season coach.
Oops there goes that crazy internet thing again…
1st I was talking to the original poster (OP) he is in the Dutch Leagues, as to how cool it is to be making baseball history and creating a new tradition… 
The green portion is a second subject all together…I wouldn’t want to presume on a guy getting a paycheck Coach, not at all, I was pointing out that context mattered in the discussion…I still don’t think for example that you’d consider it a “teach” for the kid I posted video of. Nope I’m not judging anyone or their skills, just when a “helper” technique would or wouldn’t be appropriate by my opinion.
Quite honestly they weren’t potshots of any nature, just interjecting what I felt a pertainent point of understanding…that context when discussing training techniques is worthwhile to better understand the conversation…it also coincidently actually validates both sides of the discussion…(As in it could be said both perspectives have merit in or at an approprite time).
In the video, he loads (Which validates your point) and he has constant hip movement to the plate (Validating comments JP made). I was providing a real world example how it can be done and is a “reachable” thing (Though O’Leary did say this kid has “Perfect Mechs” ) for a non-professional.
Again the poster was Dutch, I have read your posts and have no qualms with you at all.
I’m not going to address the lecture you gave me because I wasn’t able to communicate my point…I hope this gives you a better idea of the concept I was bringing to the forum.
AND…
I was complimenting everyone for being so nice to each other :shock:
Coach
In reading through some of these posts it seems you think I am promoting moving forward as soon as the stride foot comes off the ground and disregarding all need for balance. I’m sorry if that is how you interpreted it. Just to be clear I would like to see pitchers of all ages begin forward movement at or before top of leg lift, not necessarily when the foot comes off the ground. This helps maximize stride length and subsequent release of the ball closer to the target. Timing of that first forward movement will vary based on the strength of each individual. Of course the pitcher needs balance. I’m just not a fan of the traditional “lift and pause” type of thinking and from what I read I don’t think that’s what you’re promoting. It’s likely we’re pretty close on this.
[quote]In response to your post let me first say that I don’t believe I mentioned any thing to do with “stopping” if I did that was my mistake and if I inferred that it would also have been a mistake.
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I realize you never referenced stopping. My reference to stopping is that if the body moves too far to the rear as evidenced by movement of the head, that the body either as a whole or as individual parts, must stop in order to change direction and begin movement toward the target. In my experience this is where the youth pitcher faces the greatest chance of breaking down, often due to the core not being strong enough to coordinate the timing and sequencing of the lower and upper halves. Often times the upper half gets ahead of the lower half negating or limiting the contribution of the legs and hips. I would say that a majority of videos posted on this site of youth pitchers deal with some form of poor use of the lower half.
[quote]With the immediately aforementioned being stated from a stretch position in order to lift the lead leg off the grond even one inch unless using a slide step the pitchers weight abslutely has to transger back wards. The higher the leg lift the more backwards load that can be created and yes too much is not a good thing either…my point is simple physics…if one stands on both feet regardless if they are close together or far apart if they lift one of them off the ground their weight will transfer to the one that stays on the ground.
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You are correct that for every pitcher the weight shifts to the rear leg upon leg lift. However from too wide of a stance in order to remain balanced the body’s center of balance/mass will shift to the rear as well to compensate for the large mass of the leg. This body mass then needs to be stopped and redirected toward the target. From a narrower stance, say with the feet starting in a position narrower than shoulder width, the weight can shift but the center of balance/mass will essentially remain unchanged- thus little or no head or body movement to the rear- just a weight shift to the back leg. This was all I was suggesting to the OP in my original post- try starting with your feet a little closer together in a slightly more athletic posture- nothing monumental. I apologize to the OP for this thread taking off on a tangent.
Again I’m not saying there’s no shift in weight or load to the rear leg. I think this can be accomplished at all levels though without also having to overcome and redirect momentum of the body that started in a negative direction. In all of this there is no reason that a player can’t make a full leg lift as his strength and flexibility will allow.
I will not argue with the mechanics of the pitchers you reference. I think though that if you look closely you’ll see their heads remain rock steady as they load on the rear leg. Yes there is a weight shift to the rear but little or no shift in center of balance/mass. If you’re familiar with golf it’s almost like a golfer coiling during the backswing- weight shift with a coil of the hips- facilitated by leg lift in baseball and an inward roll of the ankle/knee in golf- but with little or no head movement.
Each pitcher starts forward at a different point in their delivery based on their individual timing but in all the videos I could find all started forward before top of leg lift. I think you will find this trait in the majority of MLB pitchers. Some are more pronounced with it than others. If you can find video of Santana you’ll see at the top of leg lift he’s already gained about 12 inches on home plate. IMO this is possible for youth pitchers as well just in less magnitude.
[quote]The question I would like to respecftully pose to you so I can better understand where you are coming from is…what would you teach a pitcher to do from the wind up position in terms of their leg lift, balance point if there is one, the initial position of the hands, the position of the hands apon separation and perhaps most importantly how would you teach the wind up to a pitcher that is long downwards out of the glove with his arm action…after all this type of pitcher in merely going foward right away towards the target is going to have to play a ton of catch up to even get close to slot because his front side will be ready to do every thing and his arm will not even be close.
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Since you asked I’ll try to address what I can briefly. From the windup I like to see the head remain over the pivot foot- similar to Oswalt if you will. Whether a pitcher’s initial step is to the rear, side or front is of little consequence- I just don’t want to see a lot of side-to-side movement of the head. As far as posture I want the pitcher to assume a posture that he’s strong enough to maintain throughout the delivery- whatever that may be for the individual. Leg lift is the same as stretch- “generally” stride knee to throwing shoulder and to a height determined by individual strength. Balance is not so much of a balance “point” as it is a dynamic balance- balance on the move in a direct line toward the target. If you want to say that all find a “balance point” for a frame or two I won’t argue with that but I also will say the hips are likely to be moving forward slightly at all times. I would like for ward movement to begin sometime before the top of leg lift. This helps maximize stride length and release as close to the target as possible. Again I don’t want to see any inappropriate head movement side-to-side or up and down.
Regarding when the hands separate I’m sort of in the camp that no one told the cave men how to separate to throw so in almost all cases it is a individual thing that falls into place as other things are done properly.
Your specific question about a long arm out of the glove is a little more complicated since there are a lot of potential unknowns. If indeed the arm is playing “catchup” IMO this player is likely to get in trouble with things that cause premature rotation such as pulling and tucking the glove, poor hip and shoulder separation, etc. So I would focus on things that promote late rotation such as establishing and maintaining a good “opposite and equal” position with the glove side as well as properly stabilizing the glove in front of the torso. Again just a generalization.
JDfromFLA…my sincere apologies for falling into the abyss of the crazy online thing you made mention of which I completely agree with you.
I don’t have any excuse…I jumped the gun…I am new to the site and perhaps I should refrain from long posts all together and keep it simple becuase as you also mentioned…re: context, typed words and the internet…I completely agree with you.
Again my sincere apologies…I honestly feel like a donkey!
Normally I am relatively reserved but today was one of those days.
I look forward to following your insight on this discussion board moving forward.
Lets just leave it at that and perhaps start over on another disucssion some other day.
Put me in the camp of no rearward movement - of the center of mass or the head. This means the pitcher has to maintain balance while standing on one foot and while bringing that rearward movement to a stop, changing direction, and initiating forward movement. This is tough for young pitchers though you can help them by getting them to lower their center of mass (i.e. bend the knees and waist).
Taking the front leg/knee/foot back during the knee lift is relative. With good forward movement, the front leg/knee/foot really won’t move backwards relative to the mound - just relative to the pitcher’s body which is moving forward. For those pitchers who “gather” over the rubber, yes, the front leg/knee/foot will move backwards. But if it create good separation (i.e. torque) and timing, then it is worthwhile. It’s certainly more doable for older pitchers with better core strength. It might cause problems for young pitchers.
Its all good friend
Just keep contributing with the passion you feel, it will all iron out. 