Pitching & Tennis

Wanted some advise about my 11 year old son, he has been pitching for two years doing great, he also has passion for tennis doing really well with as well.

My question, is it OK for the arm at this age? or maybe decision few years down the road?

Thanks

Playing tennis will benefit the pitching from the standpoint that it strengthens the decelerators on the back of the shoulder. This happens because tennis players have to decelerate a racket in addition to their arm.

On the other hand, I’d be careful of overlapping tennis and baseball because I feel serving in tennis is comparable to pitching (as is overhand serving in volleyball). Also, pitchers should take a couple months off each year. But if that time is spent playing tennis (or volleyball), then the benefits of the rest period may not be realized. I’m all for kids playing multiple sports. Just make sure there is a couple months of no pitching/serving each year.

Like the other reply, make sure that he takes at least one month off each year to let the arm repair itself. Always make sure to ease back in to throwing or serving, or else your son could develop tennis elbow, which is not serious, but very annoying for him.

[quote=“Roger”]Playing tennis will benefit the pitching from the standpoint that it strengthens the decelerators on the back of the shoulder. This happens because tennis players have to decelerate a racket in addition to their arm.

On the other hand, I’d be careful of overlapping tennis and baseball because I feel serving in tennis is comparable to pitching (as is overhand serving in volleyball). Also, pitchers should take a couple months off each year. But if that time is spent playing tennis (or volleyball), then the benefits of the rest period may not be realized. I’m all for kids playing multiple sports. Just make sure there is a couple months of no pitching/serving each year.[/quote]

Roger I agree with a couple of points and disagree in other areas. Tennis, as you mentioned, strengthens the decelerators and it also increase shoulder stabilization at different angles with the overhead, backhand, etc… It forces the shoulder to stabilize on impact with the ball.

I don’t agree with taking time off from throwing unless their is a history of injuries. I agree that they should take time off from pitching but not throwing. I think there is a big difference between the two. Americans simply do not throw the ball enough, there is way too much time spent pitching and not nearly enough time throwing.

I don’t believe I addressed the issue of taking time off of throwing (as opposed to pitching). My point was that serving was similar to pitching a baseball so playing both sports at the same time could, in effect, double a kid’s “pitching” load and playing tennis while taking time off of pitching could be like NOT taking any time off of pitching.

If you want to address the topic of taking time off of throwing, then it’s my opinion that you also need to discuss age. Year-round throwing may be appropriate for older pitchers but I think it’s questionable for younger pitchers. After all, ASMI recommended time off from all overhand throwing.

I know there are a lot of folks who claim kids pitch too much and don’t throw enough but I’m not sure the answer is to throw year-round. Rather, it could mean simply more throwing and less pitching during the season while still taking time off from all throwing for 2-3 months each year. I’m inclined to follow the recommendations of folks like Andrews and those at ASMI - especially for young kids.

[color=red][quote=“Roger”]I don’t believe I addressed the issue of taking time off of throwing (as opposed to pitching). My point was that serving was similar to pitching a baseball so playing both sports at the same time could, in effect, double a kid’s “pitching” load and playing tennis while taking time off of pitching could be like NOT taking any time off of pitching.
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I see your point but just don’t agree, that’s all. I respectfully agree to disagree.

[color=red]If you want to address the topic of taking time off of throwing, then it’s my opinion that you also need to discuss age. Year-round throwing may be appropriate for older pitchers but I think it’s questionable for younger pitchers. After all, ASMI recommended time off from all overhand throwing.

I know there are a lot of folks who claim kids pitch too much and don’t throw enough but I’m not sure the answer is to throw year-round. Rather, it could mean simply more throwing and less pitching during the season while still taking time off from all throwing for 2-3 months each year. I’m inclined to follow the recommendations of folks like Andrews and those at ASMI - especially for young kids.[/quote][/color]

Completely understandable. By no means am I Dr. Andrews. However, how do you explain the phenomena in Japan and Latin America, I have spent countless hours researching and speaking to coaches, scouts that spend time in those regions of the world. Do they follow those guidelines?
I don’t think there is a definitive answer to preventing injuries regardless of case studies. So much comes from learning to listen to your body, it is an amazing and complex machine and has built in mechanisms to alert you of something wrong and no two people are the same. I feel the body will adapt accordingly if the activity is presented properly and gradually introduced. I don’t know how old you are but when I was growing up I played tennis, baseball, football, wiffle ball on a daily basis as did many of the kids in the neighborhood. We were constantly throwing something, wiffle balls, water logged balls, footballs, apples, rocks. You never heard anyone saying don’t throw, don’t do this, don’t play this, etc… Now there is a case study for everything and it all centers around “don’t do this”. We place so many kids in a box and constantly enforce barriers that keep them from developing. How about saying hey kid, go out and throw, throw it as far as you want, as fast as you want and as long as you want everyday if you want to. When your done with this if you want to go to play tennis, football, it doesn’t matter to me, HAVE FUN!!! If your arm starts to bother you take a break, if it doesn’t keep doing it my man! So, personally I am inclined to the old school mentality of go out and throw it little man!

This example is disengenuous to what American life is currently. There is no phenominon, latin players and asian players break…there certainly aren’t super human, they follow a slightly different path. Thats all.
American kids aren’t the kids you and I and Roger were. They can’t be “kicked out of the house” til dinner…or left to their own devices over huge periods of time, they don’t have the assortment of playmates we used to have (Everything is controlled now, where it comes to kids, activities, free time). The idylic life you’ve described to Roger is in a Rockwell painting. So what you have now is children with very focused and targeted tracts of time. Now if a kid shows any talent at all he needs to compete, that competition is also very targeted and focused.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the statement of kids needing to throw more/pitch less but then you start down the path…who is the pitcher going to throw with? Dad? Mom? maybe a brother? Which one of those has the needed free time to just throw? I will personally claim “some” exceptions to that rule (I’m one, with my son…we throw nearly every day still…but he’s 21 and working his way back from injury) but if you take your “normal” nuclear family, with work and “other” activities…homework for example…and kids have very little time to “just throw” and pitifully few “mates” who they can “just throw” to.
Both of the regions you mentioned produce players…but you also have to remember that “culturally” Latin America and Asia don’t have the sport diversity we have…in Latin America it’s baseball or soccer in Asia it’s baseball or go to work…here…we can’t get enough kids for baseball when there is a healthy lacrosse or basketball league or football league or soccer league or…well you can figure it out…we have thinned our pool while theirs is as rich as ever…the demographics show just that…not that they specifically are “more talented” or better…we’ve got some pretty good players showing up on our side of the ledger despite the thinning of our talent pool and play time allocations…Timmy L, Bryce Harper…names like Lee and Halliday…we manage to “show-up” :wink:

The medical experts at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) disagree with you. They recommend, for youth pitchers:

No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.http://bit.ly/ef2A2n

And, this recommendation of ASMI is in line with the 2008 medical study “Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers,” J. La. State. Med. Soc. (2008), by Edmund Kenneth Kerut, MD, Denise Goodfellow Kerut, MD, Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD, and James R. Andrews, MD, which recommends, for youth pitchers:

For at least three months a year, a pitcher should not play any baseball or perform throwing drills. In addition, any overhead activity (football quarterback, competitive swimming, javelin throwing) should be avoided during that period of time.http://bit.ly/q5meXn

These are unconditional statements from medical experts, not dependent on the existence or nonexistence of a “history of injuries.” I have never seen opposing statements from medical experts. On the contrary, my good friend, who is an orthopedic surgeon in a major East Coast medical center, told me to follow these recommendations “to a T” with my son.

I believe that once your reach a certain age then you can pitch throughout the year. I would say around the time you start throwing breaking balls so 14-15 years old. Before that age, if that person wants to throw year around they should do mechanical work with light throwing.

Once you reach that age then I believe that you can handle more throwing.

I wouldn’t recommend pitching in the off-season when you’re younger, but it is needed to do some mechanical work.

Just my opinion though.

This example is disengenuous to what American life is currently. There is no phenominon, latin players and asian players break…there certainly aren’t super human, they follow a slightly different path. Thats all.

My point exactly!!! There are less limitations and more expectations. I spoke to an International Scouting Director in Japan and he mentioned that in his first year he had about had a heart attack and pointed out how many of these guys would blow out at any time and then went on to say the same guys he was “predicting” to blow out ended up signing for millions, Hideki Irabu and can’t remember the other guy. The schedule was something like this: Monday 125 pitch pen, Tuesday 100 pitch, Wednesday 175, Thursday 100, Friday Pitch. Wow, what a workload. Am I advocating this, NO WAY! These guys had found a way to adapt to the workload because it was expected, part of there culture. What do ASMI say about that?? If you want to avoid injuries, avoid throwing, plain and simple. I could put my own case study together and it would work like this. 50 kids went one year without throwing a baseball and 100% of them experienced no pain, no injuries. THERE IS AN INHERENT RISK WITH THROWING THE BASEBALL!!!

American kids aren’t the kids you and I and Roger were. They can’t be “kicked out of the house” til dinner…or left to their own devices over huge periods of time, they don’t have the assortment of playmates we used to have (Everything is controlled now, where it comes to kids, activities, free time). The idylic life you’ve described to Roger is in a Rockwell painting. So what you have now is children with very focused and targeted tracts of time. Now if a kid shows any talent at all he needs to compete, that competition is also very targeted and focused.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the statement of kids needing to throw more/pitch less but then you start down the path. throw" to.

That seems to be society’s attitude. Its not the same in other countries and cultures. They have plenty of time to play video games, right??

[color=red]Both of the regions you mentioned produce players…but you also have to remember that “culturally” Latin America and Asia don’t have the sport diversity we have…in Latin America it’s baseball or soccer in Asia it’s baseball or go to work…here…we can’t get enough kids for baseball when there is a healthy lacrosse or basketball league or football league or soccer league or…well you can figure it out…we have thinned our pool while theirs is as rich as ever…the demographics show just that…not that they specifically are “more talented” or better…we’ve got some pretty good players showing up on our side of the ledger despite the thinning of our talent pool and play time allocations…Timmy L, Bryce Harper…names like Lee and Halliday…we manage to “show-up” :wink:
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We absolutely do have some “pretty good” players, not arguing that. My point is why do we say that a kid’s just needs to play one sport. What’s wrong with playing tennis and baseball at the same time, why would we place limitations and “don’ts” on a kid if he wants to play both. If he is not experiencing injuries, soreness, etc… why would we tell a kid that hey "i just got the latest case study and it says “don’t” play tennis and baseball or lacrosse at the same time. If he wants to play both, let him!!

Thanks for your post, I totally respect your opinion, this is just mine!

The medical experts at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) disagree with you. They recommend, for youth pitchers:

" http://bit.ly/ef2A2n

I am sure they do! I agree with taking time off from competing, there has to be a time when there is focus on skill development and a time that it is OK TO FAIL!!!

And, this recommendation of ASMI is in line with the 2008 medical study “Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers,” J. La. State. Med. Soc. (2008), by Edmund Kenneth Kerut, MD, Denise Goodfellow Kerut, MD, Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD, and James R. Andrews, MD, which recommends, for youth pitchers:

For at least three months a year, a pitcher should not play any baseball or perform throwing drills. In addition, any overhead activity (football quarterback, competitive swimming, javelin throwing) should be avoided during that period of time.http://bit.ly/q5meXn

With all the case studies and you could go on and on with them, why are there more injuries today, up almost 200% from years ago. Is it because of the kids being overused from playing competitively or underprepared from lack of throwing outside of the season/in season??? Is it the limitations and the “don’ts” we place on kids? Did Nolan Ryan follow this, Bob Gibson, Satchel Paige, Bob Feller? Research what those guys did, what does ASMI and your friend say about their workload and routines? Do they stay within the guidelines??? No, because to throw paid the bills. Because they conformed to expectations versus limitations.

Thanks for your input, I respect your post I just don’t agree

Who says this?

I am very familiar with the workload…show me where it produces a better more durable pitcher…at any level…just because they do it doesn’t mean that it makes them better players and judging by the guys that came this way as the “best” they had…Dice K was ok for a couple and Nomo was good for a bit but no way were they more durable and able to produce more innings.

Not sure who you are trying to convince here…or why the emphasis

First I don’t agree with the premise here…like all kids want to do is play video games…sure they like it…but if you are sending your kid off to the park…unattended in this day and age you are flirting with disaster…you won’t find many other parents who will allow their kid to join in with you there…I didn’t make this society degenerate…I’m observing a condition, very particularly with pre-teens…want that fixed? Well that would be another forum.
As I said…those who do have active kids have a very wide variety of activities to participate…it thins out our talent pool. You can attribute it to lazy slothful behavior on the kids part but I think it has more to do with single-parent households…I mean seriously…if your parent is working 12-16 just to get by…what are the kids going to be doing?? It would be great if they could “just go outside and play”…they can’t…again it isn’t something that is an easy fix.

I think you have to have this in a bit better context…ASMI for one advocates multi-sport activity, they also advocate extended rest. Knowing Dr. Fleisig I can tell you two things…his team will report without editorial taint and they will make recommendations based on “worse case” possibilities" in other words ASMI will promote a conservative and “healthy” approach…will that ensure success? No. Will it get the greatest amounts of players from get go to done with less injury? Possibly, if they have there recommendations reasonably followed. They are presenting the science at the end of somebody elses question.
I also don’t find many posters on this forum that advocate, particularly in youth, for one sport dedication…really I can’t remember the first one.
It is a good discussion though…

I am very familiar with the workload…show me where it produces a better more durable pitcher…at any level…just because they do it doesn’t mean that it makes them better players and judging by the guys that came this way as the “best” they had…Dice K was ok for a couple and Nomo was good for a bit but no way were they more durable and able to produce more innings.

Not saying it makes them better or more durable. My point is that in America, no way that work load exists. The Japanese and other cultures should have taught us that anything is possible and there should never be always or nevers. (Fred Corral quote). We are citing case studies that kids should take 2-3-4 months off from throwing to prevent injuries and those guys are going in a completely different direction and proving that it is possible. What if we told those foreign pitchers to conform to our guidelines would they have been as successful? Who knows? What if we told those kids in the Dominican and Venezuela to not throw year around because ASMI has guidelines would they still comprise such a high percentage of pro baseball players???

Not sure who you are trying to convince here…or why the emphasis

My point is regardless of time off and guidelines, they don’t work for everyone. If we treat the arm as fragile we end up with a fragile arm. We need to accept there is a chance for injury but not make it premise of our throwing programs. Don’t place limits and prescribed throwing programs for everyone. Everyone is totally different.

First I don’t agree with the premise here…like all kids want to do is play video games…sure they like it…but if you are sending your kid off to the park…unattended in this day and age you are flirting with disaster…you won’t find many other parents who will allow their kid to join in with you there…I didn’t make this society degenerate…I’m observing a condition, very particularly with pre-teens…want that fixed? Well that would be another forum.

Not saying that all kids want to play video games. You mentioned that there is no way to have someone throw with them at all times because of other activities. Do they need someone to play games with them? No. do you need a “Park” to throw or work on a particular skill? No. Do they need a partner to throw with? NO. I came from a single parent home so I don’t know why single parents workloads have to do with a kid playing??

My point is that we place way too many limits on kids based on case studies, we have a pill for everything, we spend more time making excuses for why a kid “can’t”, “shouldn’t” etc… The kids in other parts of the world are not exposed to our mentality but have seen just as much success if not more based on population and the percentage playing in our country and at the highest level. So how and why should we place so many limits on our kids based on case studies, I think that there are just way too many limitations. Again, check out the guys in the “golden ages” of baseball when there were 4 man rotations and the old “Negro” leagues. These guys threw the baseball. There arms and body’s adapted to the activity and found a way to be successful just like the guys in other countries today.

Thanks for the response!!

Not sure who you are trying to convince here…or why the emphasis

My point is that you cite case studies on taking time off and guidelines on throwing. Does that lower the risk? In our society we say yes. In the Dominican and Japan they say, NO. Which is right, which is wrong? Regardless of time off and throwing there is a risk to throwing the baseball. No two people are the same. You could take one kid and make him throw year round, you could take another kid and follow your guidelines but based on thousands of variables you would get different outcomes.

I think you are running around in circles here…If you don’t want to deal with the reality of the modern world and what it does to kids time/play allocations ok, I mean you can give all the he-man, “I’ve been through” stuff you want, coach actual kids in the real world…it’s what I’m discussing.
…Sure the Japanese have a program…it isn’t better…just different, they have a culture that values certain things that are no longer valued here.
I see guys doing 100 games a year with 8-12 yr olds…is that good? Is it bad? Can some kid withstand it and get through to a place like high school and college without becomming lame?
So if 100 games is cool by you then how about just giving them a full major league schedule…is that enough? Look you are right…we used to throw alot, all the time, we quit when we were tired and moved on. Today it isn’t that way. I see good reason for guideline… I hesitate to assign motive to people if I’m not certain. I am certain about ASMI, they care and are attempting to assist those who haven’t a background in coaching to be able to understand that “certain” things should be considered…they make no absolutes…heck ask Fred Corral, he posts there as do I.

Obviously you aren’t raising one right now or it wouldn’t mystify you at all…It has everything to do with it. Look I expect a kid to find a way…when he hits his teens and loves his art…well no excuses…you find a way…pre-pubescent kids are not in a position to extend beyond parental control…I miss it too…just like you.

I think you are running around in circles here…If you don’t want to deal with the reality of the modern world and what it does to kids time/play allocations ok, I mean you can give all the he-man, “I’ve been through” stuff you want, coach actual kids in the real world…it’s what I’m discussing.

Not sure where you are getting the “he-man” mentality but its no problem. I actually have been fortunate and blessed to coach baseball for a living the last 9 years and that is exactly what I am discussing. Its the attitude of today coming from all coaches, myself included that do kids a disservice by placing limitations on them is my whole point. I simply used examples to convey my point and point out that everyone is different.

…Sure the Japanese have a program…it isn’t better…just different, they have a culture that values certain things that are no longer valued here. I see guys doing 100 games a year with 8-12 yr olds…is that good? Is it bad? Can some kid withstand it and get through to a place like high school and college without becomming lame?
So if 100 games is cool by you then how about just giving them a full major league schedule…is that enough?

You might want to re-read my previous posts, I have mentioned nothing about competing (I actually mentioned that kids need time off from competing and a time where it is OK to fail, try new things).

Look you are right…we used to throw alot, all the time, we quit when we were tired and moved on. Today it isn’t that way. I see good reason for guideline… I hesitate to assign motive to people if I’m not certain. I am certain about ASMI, they care and are attempting to assist those who haven’t a background in coaching to be able to understand that “certain” things should be considered…they make no absolutes…heck ask Fred Corral, he posts there as do I.

Why not educate them on both sides and allow them to make a decision. If you are going to weigh one side, shouldn’t you weigh the other. That was my point with other cultures. If a kid has no problems or histories with injuries why place limitations on them?

[color=red][quote] I don’t know why single parents workloads have to do with a kid playing??[/quote]
Obviously you aren’t raising one right now or it wouldn’t mystify you at all…It has everything to do with it.[/color]

I was a single parent for over 6 years so I am mystified why you would make that comment. Before I discuss any further could you elaborate on why a kid “can’t” because he comes from a single parent home? I think Pat Summit from the TN Lady Vols would strongly disagree with you there. As a matter of fact, she actively recruits single parent families.

As always, I appreciate your response and your passion.

First, the recent increase in injuries among youth pitchers has coincided precisely with the recent increase in year-round or almost-year-round youth pitching. When injuries INCREASE alongside an INCREASE in an activity, it is fallacious reasoning to conclude that LESS of the activity is what causes the injury.

Second, if “lack of throwing outside of the season” is the cause of youth pitcher injuries, as you claim, then the injury rate among youth pitchers would have been HIGHER in the PAST when youth pitchers pitched FEWER MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR (usually only 3 or 4 out of 12 months) and had MUCH LONGER OFF SEASONS. But the injury rate was LOWER in the past, disproving your claim.

Third, if “lack of throwing outside of the season” is the cause of youth pitcher injuries, as you claim, then youth pitching injuries would be on the DECLINE from the SHRINKING OFF SEASONS resulting from year round pitching. But youth pitching injuries are on the INCREASE, disproving your claim again.

You’re free to disagree with the medical experts, just like I’m free to disagree with nuclear engineers on how to build an atomic bomb. But unless you’re a doctor and I’m a nuclear engineer, neither of us has a leg to stand on.

I was saying that because you yourself had an experience and you were able to overcome (The he-man :wink: ) doesn’t change the difficulties of trying to get a kid quality practice time as a pre-pubescent kid…with a parent who is strapped.
God bless Pat, she doesn’t recruit 10yr olds…who don’t have the opportuinity to go to the park like we used to…or throw against the wall etc. etc.
I don’t believe in limiting kids at all. I’m not bagging on anyone or type either…just trying to stay on the real side and refrain from hyperbole that heats up the issue…if I can :lol:

Both sides of what?
It would be silly to “educate” them to throw 6-8 hrs a day as the orientals do, there is simply no release for that. I want my kids to have opportunities and will work to facillitate for them those opps. I want to teach them what wise men who are successful have taught me about arm care and maintenance and I want them to have fun while doing it.

Where did I say a kid “can’t”? I said the methodology you seem to be advocating takes a lifestyle that single parents have a very difficult time replicating…for reasons that have to do with how life is supported in the modern world…no you won’t find me saying a kid “can’t”, but it isn’t about me. I came on the thread in order to converse about some issues and topics you brought up…I believe in what I call the theory of reasonability…as I said I still throw nearly everyday and believe that the approach I take and have taken in my brief time assisting youth has assisted a couple of kids…my way isn’t the only one though and I look to advance thought towards the art. We really don’t differ much, I guess my take is you have to deal the cards in the deck…make logical and reasonable decisions based on what you have…I cannot change the world but can control how I work with what I do get.

I was saying that because you yourself had an experience and you were able to overcome (The he-man :wink: ) doesn’t change the difficulties of trying to get a kid quality practice time as a pre-pubescent kid…with a parent who is strapped.
God bless Pat, she doesn’t recruit 10yr olds…who don’t have the opportuinity to go to the park like we used to…or throw against the wall etc. etc.
I don’t believe in limiting kids at all. I’m not bagging on anyone or type either…just trying to stay on the real side and refrain from hyperbole that heats up the issue…if I can :lol:

Both sides of what?
It would be silly to “educate” them to throw 6-8 hrs a day as the orientals do, there is simply no release for that. I want my kids to have opportunities and will work to facillitate for them those opps. I want to teach them what wise men who are successful have taught me about arm care and maintenance and I want them to have fun while doing it.

Where did I say a kid “can’t”? I said the methodology you seem to be advocating takes a lifestyle that single parents have a very difficult time replicating…for reasons that have to do with how life is supported in the modern world…no you won’t find me saying a kid “can’t”, but it isn’t about me. I came on the thread in order to converse about some issues and topics you brought up…I believe in what I call the theory of reasonability…as I said I still throw nearly everyday and believe that the approach I take and have taken in my brief time assisting youth has assisted a couple of kids…my way isn’t the only one though and I look to advance thought towards the art. We really don’t differ much, I guess my take is you have to deal the cards in the deck…make logical and reasonable decisions based on what you have…I cannot change the world but can control how I work with what I do get.[/quote]

Well said Jdfromfla!! I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you on a lot of areas. I am not advocating anything other than to make the conversation about allowing kids some freedom and trying not to place their development in a box.

I enjoyed your conversation and love the passion you share. I am sure you do a great job with your kids! Keep it up!

[quote=“south paw”][quote=“Baseballthinktank.com”]With all the case studies and you could go on and on with them, why are there more injuries today, up almost 200% from years ago.
First, the recent increase in injuries among youth pitchers has coincided precisely with the recent increase in year-round or almost-year-round youth pitching. When injuries INCREASE alongside an INCREASE in an activity, it is fallacious reasoning to conclude that LESS of the activity is what causes the injury.

Second, if “lack of throwing outside of the season” is the cause of youth pitcher injuries, as you claim.

Third, if “lack of throwing outside of the season” is the cause of youth pitcher injuries, as you claim again.

You’re free to disagree with the medical experts, just like I’m free to disagree with nuclear engineers on how to build an atomic bomb. But unless you’re a doctor and I’m a nuclear engineer, neither of us has a leg to stand on.[/quote]

  1. I am not advocating pitching year around.
  2. I am not claiming but rather questioning, (read the highlighted text)what is going on with the high amount of injuries
  3. I am not claiming or advocating either. Putting it out there for discussion.
  4. You seem to have put throwing/pitching in the same category hoping for the same effect/consequence. Big difference in the two and a big difference between competing versus throwing to enhance a skill.

I love the passion of your debate! Keep it going.