Pitching Mechanics: Any change affects every change!

Here’s the latest post, love to hear your thoughts.

Great article! I agree, it’s crazy to change things in season and expect (good) results.

One question re Bauer. Where do you see him being front hip dominated?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the term.

Or video here:

It looks to me like he’s always “projected” his hips very well/gotten his hips moving very quickly, is landing with a great degree of separation, and also gets a huge amount of external rotation (9th frame in the pic). Does he really have a front hip dominated form, like the youth pitcher in the video in your other article?

He seems to meet the criteria in your checklist for being back hip dominated:
“1.Get the hips moving early and keep them moving.
2.Slightly get the hips in front of the shoulders.
3.Try and keep the front hip/leg closed as you move forward.
4.Always have a little bend in the back leg, should have mentioned that first. (That’s another issue I see with A LOT of pitchers, good future post).
5.Learn that the back hip is the aggressor. (Good way to “feel” this is to show the sole of your foot as you stride forward. Over-exaggerate it. It will give you a better idea of the hips opening back to front)
6.Firm up the front leg and allow it to be the foundation, firm doesn’t mean stiff.”

Bauer aggressively pulls the back hip open with the front. His lower body does not connect with the arm action IMO. Look at some of the still frames. In particular, the first pic on the second row.

The article was also trying to stress changing mechanics after a player had experienced tremendous success as seen with Buckel. Why??

I gotcha Lantz. And I agree with the article re changing form in mid-season and the risk/reward on mechanics. Everything affects everything.

I’m just trying to understand where Bauer is doing something wrong with his lower half. Is his form much different from Lincecum in that 2nd row first frame?

I see Bauer staying closed until his front leg passes his front hip:

To me, I don’t think he opens up like the kid in your other article and I think he does project his hips very well. That’s the only question I have.

Think,

Why use someone who displays a completely different top half mechanic than the conventional one, that you recommend to try and convince us all that it is not a good idea to change mechanics to avoid pathologies.

Bauer uses an “axipetal” top half mechanic where he turns his elbow up early and faces his triceps forwards and uses his Latissimus Dorsi as the primary mover that produces the tendency to pronate pitches. More towards the Marshall model, minus the long destructive stride that is the real problem with his groin or Adductor Brevis muscle that can easily be eliminated by a shorter stride. Yes ,I said easily that punches holes in your article theory. Of course this is best done in the fall and Winter but when you are experiencing pain you better do something to eliminate it now.

You recommend the traditional “centripetal” mechanic where the top half performs forearm flyout producing supinated pitch tendencies and the pectoralis major as the primary mover that produces the pathologies we see in most pitchers at all levels.
Stick with them as your model.

How do you rectify as seen in the graphic that all that long stride along with all the hip movements really do not add to no velocity until the arm is in position to do so?
See how all this forwards movement comes to a complete stop long before the ball starts it forwards acceleration. See how the ball actually goes backwards between the 8th frame and the 9th? Do the math! This means negative math when calculating a forwards acceleration graph (best seen from above).

Have you ever taken high speed video from above and calculated a forwards acceleration graph? I think not by your recommendations and beliefs that the legs are adding velocity like most who believe this but do not do the proper study to prove it.

PS, ask Paul to produce those original articles 3 and 4 he wrote already (to pronate or not to pronate) in their original form instead of going through all the extensive changes he is having to produce because he has someone to hold his feet to the fire of honesty now.

I noticed you have not produced (nor he yet) all the retractions necessary to clean up the first 2 articles that have many believing what he said about what Dr.Marshall has actually said and believes. This is important for you to come clean on this if you are to be believed on anything else.

[quote=“yardbird”]Think,

Why use someone who displays a completely different top half mechanic than the conventional one, that you recommend to try and convince us all that it is not a good idea to change mechanics to avoid pathologies.

Bauer uses an “axipetal” top half mechanic where he turns his elbow up early and faces his triceps forwards and uses his Latissimus Dorsi as the primary mover that produces the tendency to pronate pitches. More towards the Marshall model, minus the long destructive stride that is the real problem with his groin or Abductor Brevis muscle that can easily be eliminated by a shorter stride. Yes ,I said easily that punches holes in your article theory. Of course this is best done in the fall and Winter but when you are experiencing pain you better do something to eliminate it now.
Where have I ever said that legs add velo? The legs primary responsibility is to transport the CM at higher speeds.

You recommend the traditional “centripetal” mechanic where the top half performs forearm flyout producing supinated pitch tendencies and the pectoralis major as the primary mover that produces the pathologies we see in most pitchers at all levels.
Stick with them as your model.

How do you rectify as seen in the graphic that all that long stride along with all the hip movements really do not add to no velocity until the arm is in position to do so?
See how all this forwards movement comes to a complete stop long before the ball starts it forwards acceleration. See how the ball actually goes backwards between the 8th frame and the 9th? Do the math! This means negative math when calculating a forwards acceleration graph (best seen from above).

Have you ever taken high speed video from above and calculated a forwards acceleration graph? I think not by your recommendations and beliefs that the legs are adding velocity like most who believe this but do not do the proper study to prove it.

PS, ask Paul to produce those original articles 3 and 4 he wrote already (to pronate or not to pronate) in their original form instead of going through all the extensive changes he is having to produce because he has someone to hold his feet to the fire of honesty now.

I noticed you have not produced (nor he yet) all the retractions necessary to clean up the first 2 articles that have many believing what he said about what Dr.Marshall has actually said and believes. This is important for you to come clean on this if you are to be believed on anything else.[/quote]

When did I say the legs “add” velo? The legs primary responsibility is to transport the CM at higher speeds. It looks like “Marshall” rendition of preventing early forearm fly out is working well for Buckel

What about Matzek? I don’t see all the characteristics of Marshall’s theory inside his delivery? Why not?

Mclove ,
Watch how Bauet gets to the point. The front hip is pulling the back hip into rotation, the projection is fine.

Think,

“Quid pro quo”, I answer all your questions, try doing the same for me.

You have implied it in all your articles about the subject, you use terms like “transfers” energy when it does no such thing.

As I have shown you now and proved it, the ball is actually moving backwards at this point. The forwards mass has come to a complete forwards stop while the arm is going through it’s forearm/Humeral transition phase.

I have no clue who Buckel is and his relationship to Dr.Marshall, show me!!!
What the heck is “early forearm flyout”, this is a new term you have just made up, show me?

Yes what about him? I trained him as a youth, he is now under the control of affiliated coaches and acquiescing to them, what now? Have you yet questioned why a kid that comes into an organization with 6 pitches (3 moving right and 3 moving left at 3 different speeds), 5 with command, now has 3 and throws his maxline fastball 80% of the time? Aren’t affiliated coaches wonderful? I don’t expect you or your guru to understand this or his development timeline and for you and him to keep bringing it up is just fog on the subject or questions you are dodging.

Because you do not recognize it, this is typical.
It is the same reason you do not understand the difference in supinating pitches and pronating them by this statement and others or the fact you are just learning what a primary mover is. Tell me what muscle is Mr.Matzeks primary mover between the Pectoralis major and the Latissimus Dorsi and you will have the answers to your questions on this subject, You are learning. And don’t go crying to Nyman about this for answers, he will lead you astray and keep you in your traditional pathological box.

How about the retractions and corrections or does your site stand for lies and distortions? I would like to think that it does not stand for this!!! Have you asked Paul to tell the truth yet? How about you posting the next 2 articles in their original form, I’m pretty sure you have them?

This is Matzek in high school:

You’re right Lon, I can’t see it. In an earlier post you were claiming him, now you seem to say that you had him in his youth. As we all know, nobody gets a kid to the major leagues, they do that on their own.

I see a kid with great ability. As his coach, why would you allow him to throw like this in high school prior to getting drafted? In fact, I see more variables that go against your teachings.

Call me a fool but I see aggressive shoulder rotation when he was at his best in the first video at the AFLAC games. I think i see the arm passing the acromial line???

Could you please explain?

I responded to Lantz on Twitter, but I feel compelled to make a note here: Lantz, you are making a LOT of assumptions on why Buckel and Bauer made changes to their arm actions - or what you perceive the arm action changes may be based on 25 FPS video on YouTube that suffers from parallax error.

I recommend you consider the assumptions you are making and think if you really have all the information. You state that you think Buckel changed his mechanics because he perceived he had an inverted delivery. Do you know this for sure? Have you talked to Buckel? Why did he have an “inverted” delivery all last year when he had worked with Ron and others prior to the 2012 season?

As an aside, your note on the redirection of the forearm has no basis in research science - no research shows that increased vER (aka the SSC) is positively correlated with increased ball velocity. Anecdotally, Trevor’s velocity was better than ever this year despite a flattened posture and less redirection of the forearm.

I assume that by “redirection of the forearm” you mean the motion of the forearm going from the inverted (pointing downward) through vertical and then into external rotation? If so you really don’t understand the physics of throwing. That’s a problem with people who don’t have any real solid technical background who try to show how much they know by showing how little they know.

And what the heck is vER?

As an aside is plenty of evidence (research study) that what you incorrectly call SSC does have a significant contribution to velocity. You have to know how and where to look for them (you’re not going to see a billboard with neon lights saying “here they are”). It’s all about having the background and knowledge to understand what you’re looking for. And more importantly knowing when you find it.

Also "redirection of the forearm " as you put it has very little to do with SSC. Again your apparent lack of knowledge of the physiology that develops force in ballistic type activities.

I’ve looked at Bauer’s mechanics and all he exhibits is “athleticism”. His development and conversion momentum is inefficient (a very linear). He ends up pushing the baseball. All of his athleticism is very much disconnected with respect to throwing the baseball with maximum efficiency.

If I sound critical I am. If you want to “play” at this level (biomechanical and physiological analysis) then be prepared to take some shots.

[quote=“kyleb”]I responded to Lantz on Twitter, but I feel compelled to make a note here: Lantz, you are making a LOT of assumptions on why Buckel and Bauer made changes to their arm actions - or what you perceive the arm action changes may be based on 25 FPS video on YouTube that suffers from parallax error.

I recommend you consider the assumptions you are making and think if you really have all the information. You state that you think Buckel changed his mechanics because he perceived he had an inverted delivery. Do you know this for sure? Have you talked to Buckel? Why did he have an “inverted” delivery all last year when he had worked with Ron and others prior to the 2012 season?

As an aside, your note on the redirection of the forearm has no basis in research science - no research shows that increased vER (aka the SSC) is positively correlated with increased ball velocity. Anecdotally, Trevor’s velocity was better than ever this year despite a flattened posture and less redirection of the forearm.[/quote]

To be honest, I have no idea why he changed. I posed that question in Bold, Why Would You Change This Guy? Especially, arm action. I think this is a perfect example of attempting to change arm action after at a certain age. Compound the problem with constraints at the highest level and that’s what’s going to happen. If you watch Brothers, his delivery is different since he left college, he changed over the years b/c he struggled with command. His orginazition altered his delivery but it was a minor change in posture and glove side. His velo is down but his command is better. The risk was worth the reward. I loved what Buckel did, no way I would ever attempt to change arm action at that level. It’s not going to happen.

Why are pitching coaches so quick to alter mechanics? Why does it seem every issue a pitcher faces, the answer becomes “change mechanics”? After ability has been proven, skill is often the separator and I personally think that’s where most academy coaches totally miss the boat. They don’t understand that, they’ve never been there. There natural inclination is to look at it from a mechanical perspective. It’s ridiculous

A few points/questions:

  1. Bauer says he started changing his mechanics in the offseason.
    http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/03/20/bauer-claims-hes-trying-to-overwrite-years-of-neuromuscular-programming/
    "Bauer claims he began the new training on his own this offseason…“
    My understanding is that Bauer also had changed his mechanics during last season to “compensate” for his groin injury, not to prevent future groin injuries (ie, he was trying to avoid reinjuring his groin, like a person who would limp and not use his leg). The mechanics change in the offseason seemed to be related more to control/accuracy than groin stuff.
    See: http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2013/05/tampa_bays_matt_moore_a_stout.html
    "Last season, Bauer made changes in his delivery to compensate for a groin issue. In spring training, he told coaches that it was as uncomfortable as he ever had been while throwing. Bauer is attempting to get back to where he was mechanically before the groin injury.”

  2. Lantz, you say that you agree with Bauer changing his mechanics, but just not during the season. As a prospect, your career time is limited, the clock is always ticking. Does it make sense to throw away a season with mechanics that (in your view) will not bring him success? Isn’t that what the minor leagues is designed to do–work on mechanics so that it will bring success for the big league club? If so, why wait and throw away another season of burning in “neuromuscular programming” for supposedly bad mechanics?

  3. Doesn’t your argument contradict itself? You say if you’re successful you shouldn’t change. Then you take Bauer, who was the most successful college pitcher in his last season (2011) and a top 3 draft pick, who was throwing 97 MPH at times in College…and was 13-2 with 203ks in 136 innings with a 1.25 ERA, and say he should change because he uses his front hip to throw rather than his back hip.

  4. Trevor doesn’t have an inverted W, and you say he uses his front hip to throw, which costs him velocity [see: http://baseballthinktank.com/how-do-your-hips-work/ " Did you know you could increase your velocity and power at the plate by learning to use more of your lower body?"] Trevor throws in the mid-90s, how much faster could he throw using different mechanics?! Why would you think he throw harder using some other type of mechanics? Isn’t that exactly the opposite of your article, saying if it ain’t broke don’t fix it? Doesn’t Rex Brothers throw about the same speed and outweighs him by 20-30lbs?

  5. As far as Coach XJ asserting that Bauer throws hard just because he’s athletic, this is what Bauer says about his athleticism:
    http://www.jaegersports.com/press_articles.php?psid=27
    "Look, I’m not that big," says Bauer, who is 6’1", 185. “I’m not that strong. I’m not fast. I’m not explosive. I can’t jump. I wasn’t a natural-born athlete. I was made.”

  6. Lastly, are Buckel and Bauer used as examples because they’re both Wolforth pitchers? Seems so. Didn’t both of them go to Wolforth for years prior to getting drafted? Working with those techniques appears to have helped them get where they are.

[quote=“mcloven”]A few points/questions:

  1. Bauer says he started changing his mechanics in the offseason.
    http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/03/20/bauer-claims-hes-trying-to-overwrite-years-of-neuromuscular-programming/
    "Bauer claims he began the new training on his own this offseason…“
    My understanding is that Bauer also had changed his mechanics during last season to “compensate” for his groin injury, not to prevent future groin injuries (ie, he was trying to avoid reinjuring his groin, like a person who would limp and not use his leg). The mechanics change in the offseason seemed to be related more to control/accuracy than groin stuff.
    See: http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2013/05/tampa_bays_matt_moore_a_stout.html
    "Last season, Bauer made changes in his delivery to compensate for a groin issue. In spring training, he told coaches that it was as uncomfortable as he ever had been while throwing. Bauer is attempting to get back to where he was mechanically before the groin injury.”

  2. Lantz, you say that you agree with Bauer changing his mechanics, but just not during the season. As a prospect, your career time is limited, the clock is always ticking. Does it make sense to throw away a season with mechanics that (in your view) will not bring him success? Isn’t that what the minor leagues is designed to do–work on mechanics so that it will bring success for the big league club? If so, why wait and throw away another season of burning in “neuromuscular programming” for supposedly bad mechanics?

  3. Doesn’t your argument contradict itself? You say if you’re successful you shouldn’t change. Then you take Bauer, who was the most successful college pitcher in his last season (2011) and a top 3 draft pick, who was throwing 97 MPH at times in College…and was 13-2 with 203ks in 136 innings with a 1.25 ERA, and say he should change because he uses his front hip to throw rather than his back hip.

  4. Trevor doesn’t have an inverted W, and you say he uses his front hip to throw, which costs him velocity [see: http://baseballthinktank.com/how-do-your-hips-work/ " Did you know you could increase your velocity and power at the plate by learning to use more of your lower body?"] Trevor throws in the mid-90s, how much faster could he throw using different mechanics?! Why would you think he throw harder using some other type of mechanics? Isn’t that exactly the opposite of your article, saying if it ain’t broke don’t fix it? Doesn’t Rex Brothers throw about the same speed and outweighs him by 20-30lbs?

  5. As far as Coach XJ asserting that Bauer throws hard just because he’s athletic, this is what Bauer says about his athleticism:
    http://www.jaegersports.com/press_articles.php?psid=27
    "Look, I’m not that big," says Bauer, who is 6’1", 185. “I’m not that strong. I’m not fast. I’m not explosive. I can’t jump. I wasn’t a natural-born athlete. I was made.”

  6. Lastly, are Buckel and Bauer used as examples because they’re both Wolforth pitchers? Seems so. Didn’t both of them go to Wolforth for years prior to getting drafted? Working with those techniques appears to have helped them get where they are.[/quote]

  7. That’s why I posed the question, risk vs reward. Based on his history, being traded one year after being 3rd overall pick, that’s not the norm.

  8. I wouldn’t make that type of change during competitive season, stated that on several occasions, b/c of what he’s going thru now.

  9. Never one time mentioned he would increase his ability to throw harder.

  10. No, I used them b/c I thi I what they are doing is whats wrong with pitchers, hoping to emulate others and blaming problems on mechanics. If that’s what Wolforth does, the. Yes, I disagree.

But when is he going to make this change?

The article was written in Spring training–March 20th. It says:

[b]He tried to start it in the off-season, but was still recovering from injuries suffered last year with Arizona.

“Coming into spring training I felt fully healthy, but when you’re trying to overwrite 10 years of neuromuscular programming, in four or five weeks, it’s a little bit tough,” he said. [/b]

The article says he TRIED to start it in the off-season. He was hurt and couldn’t. Then when he recovered he tried to do it in spring training. You said his mechanics should be changed.

Should he waste another season burning in “Bad Mechanics” or missing his spots? Should he take the entire baseball season off and work on it? Practically, what is Bauer supposed to do? Just wait until another year goes by and try to fix things in the limited offseason, or should he work on fixing things in Spring Training and in the minors (which seems to be the next best choice to doing it in the offseason, which he couldn’t do)?

[quote=“mcloven”]

Should he waste another season burning in “Bad Mechanics” or missing his spots? [/quote]

That’s my point exactly. You make the assertion that he struggles because of mechanics!!! It’s not all about mechanics, when a guy struggles, blame it on mechanics. When a guy can’t throw strikes, guess what, it’s mechanics! I don’t get that mindset!

Please tell me why

But you said:
“He felt he needed to make a change and I agree, just not this time of year. With this type of action, the front hip aggressively pulls the back hip open, not what you want.

You said he felt he needed to make a mechanical change and you agreed.
So, when is he supposed to make it?

What would the flaw that you described, “his front hip aggressively pulling the back hip open” do to his pitching (would it affect health/durability, velocity or control)? Or would it not affect any of that? If it did affect one or more, why wouldn’t you fix that as soon as possible versus blowing another season? Or is it really not a flaw that has any impact on his results so it’s not worth fixing? That’s what I’m trying to understand.

The article you linked to about the front hip and Bauer in your article [http://baseballthinktank.com/how-do-your-hips-work/] talks about it affecting velocity (the very first sentence). My point was if that’s the case, and Bauer has that flaw and is still throwing 95- 97 MPH, how much faster can he throw? Is it really a flaw worth fixing? Why did you say you would fix it?

[quote=“mcloven”]But you said:
“He felt he needed to make a change and I agree, just not this time of year. With this type of action, the front hip aggressively pulls the back hip open, not what you want.

You said he felt he needed to make a mechanical change and you agreed.
So, when is he supposed to make it?

What would the flaw that you described, “his front hip aggressively pulling the back hip open” do to his pitching (would it affect health/durability, velocity or control)? Or would it not affect any of that? If it did affect one or more, why wouldn’t you fix that as soon as possible versus blowing another season? Or is it really not a flaw that has any impact on his results so it’s not worth fixing? That’s what I’m trying to understand.

The article you linked to about the front hip and Bauer in your article [http://baseballthinktank.com/how-do-your-hips-work/] talks about it affecting velocity (the very first sentence). My point was if that’s the case, and Bauer has that flaw and is still throwing 95- 97 MPH, how much faster can he throw? Is it really a flaw worth fixing? Why did you say you would fix it?[/quote]

I will be the first to say as I have stated, I’m not a fan of Bauers delivery. At the end of the day, he’s had results. IMO you can’t be the 3rd pick overall, get traded a year later and spend time changing your delivery. At that level, it’s all about results. Would I change that with one of my guys? No. Looking from the outside, do I see things in his delivery that could be changed? Yes. I don’t see him connected, is that where his problems stem, from his mechanics? I don’t think so. Mechanics are NOT the solution to every problem!!

Again, I’ve stated this til I’m blue in my face, multiple and simultaneous constraints will drastically slow the development process. Guys that attempt what we are seeing with those two guys are drifters in Stage 2 of learning.

Gotcha. My only confusion with your comment is that you specifically said in your article that you agreed with him needing to make changes, just not during the season.

The way you just phrased it, you actually don’t agree with him making changes (even if you don’t like his delivery) since he’s been successful to this point. Since he’s gotten this far, it would be too difficult to make major changes, and those changes might not even help since they’re so ingrained and might even set him back.

I think I agree with the wording in your post rather than what you said in the article re agreeing with him needing to make changes. I think we’re now on the same page. :slight_smile: