Pitch Limits

#1

What is the mindset on pitch limits, I know that some leagues have max. innings, some even have max. pitches. My son is limited by his travel team to 80-90 pitches max. a week (13 AAA), usually get him 6-7 innings a week if he doesn’t go too deep in the count.

USSSA has in its rules limiting innings within a tournament with mandatory rests to pitch again if you go over a certain number of innings but out of 90 game schedule this year it was enforced only at State and World Series play.

3 weeks ago we saw a kid throw at least 175 pitches against our team alone, he started and finished 2 extra innning games against us, and I am not sure if he pitched in any of the other 2 pool games they played. (We won both).

My thought is that there is a “too much”, what is “too much”, but do the parents and coaches need to be the only ones to watch out for it or should there be rules in leagues and then “why” do many USSSA sanctioned tournaments waive that rule for all but State and World Series Play?

#2

where do u play most of the time?

#3

If USSSA has rules about rest, that’s news to me. Last year when we played, the rules only limited innings per tournament.

Little League actually limits pitch counts. But they are the only youth organization to do so, I believe. Others, limit innings only or they limit nothing at all. Super Series rules used to say managers/coaches should use their own best judgement. Unfortunately, not all managers/coaches have good judgement.

I would love to see the youth organizations implement pitch count limits. Yeah, they may be unnecessary for “good” coaches, it’s kids who pay the price for the bad coaches. And often times the parents simply don’t know any better.

#4

Roger…USSSA amendments new to 2010 year…

http://www.usssa.com/usssa/usssageneral/BaseballBylawsCurrent.pdf

8.05.C.1 ONE DAY MAXIMUM TO PITCH THE THE NEXT DAY: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in one (1) day and still pitch the next day. Rule 8.05.C.1 Example: In the 7U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of three (3) innings in one (1) day and still legally pitch the next day. If the player pitches three and one-third (3 1/3) or more innings in one (1) day, the player can not legally pitch the next day.

8.05.C.2 ONE DAY MAXIMUM: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in one (1) day. Rule 8.05.C.2 Example: In the 7U – 12U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of six (6) innings in one (1) day. The player would be ineligible to pitch the next day. Similarly, in the 13U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of seven (7) innings in one (1) day. The player would be ineligible to legally pitch the next day.

8.05.C.3 THREE DAY MAXIMUM: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in three (3) consecutive days. Rule 8.05.C.3 Example: In the 7U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of eight ( 8 ) innings in three (3) consecutive days. This is to be interpreted as a player may legally pitch any combination of innings to equal eight ( 8 ) innings in two (2) days as long as the player doesn’t pitch more than three (3) innings the first (1st) day. Similarly, as a player may legally pitch any combination of innings to equal eight ( 8 ) innings in three (3) days as long as the player doesn’t pitch more than three (3) innings the first (1st) or second (2nd) days.

8.05.C.4 MANDATORY DAYS OF REST; 8.05.C.4(a) A player that pitches more than three (3) innings in one day MUST rest the next day. 8.05.C.4(b) A player that pitches eight ( 8 ) innings in two (2) consecutive days MUST rest the next day.

#5

They play in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma. Mainly USSSA tournaments but also Super Series and Triple Crown.

#6

i play in missouri and most tournaments we played in are lazy about the pitching rules, it mostly depends on quality of the umpires, but the nice places like nevada work very hard and get everything rite as so in state

#7

Yep, State and World Series events did have good control, our only trip this year to Nevada was enjoyed by all in hotel rooms watching it rain. Argh…

#8

Well we tried 2 play in 3 nevada tournaments 2 got rained out and 1 was rainy and cold all day but if u get lucky enuff 2 have the 2 black umpires who r amazing ull have a fun game

#9

The players are really looking forward to Nevada, we might try a fall tournament there.

#10

we would if we didnt play football around here

#11

My son played football until this year, now he says he is dedicating himself to baseball. I played football all through college and would love to see him play but you have to support your kids in what they want (within reason of course).

Good Luck with football

#12

Found this in one of the other forums, seems to answer some of my questions.

#13

thank you i mite switch 2 just baseball after this year but most likely whichever i can get a better scholarship 4 after hs

#14

Here’s my take on pitch counts:

I’m not a big fan of limiting the number of innings one can pitch - but I don’t mind pitch counts for youth pitchers. That being said, if the limit is 60 pitches, a youth pitcher should be practicing at least that number of pitches in his bullpens. I think the inning limitation during these tournaments has more to do with limiting the ace pitcher from dominating the entire tournament than anything else; when you limit innings, it is usually the team with the deepest pitching that ends up winning the whole thing.

Pitchers need to practice pitching at game-like intensity during their bullpens on a regular basis. It seems like the mind-set of today is to “save the arm for the game” and then go out and throw 100+ pitches. The pitchers of today are simply not conditioned to throw that many pitches. My 13 year old son throws 100+ pitches twice a week in bullpens and then pitches in games during the weekend. He can easily go 100+ pitches in a game, which is really 180-200 pitches if you consider 30-40 pre-game bullpen pitches and 8 warm-up pitches between innings. He rarely, if ever, has any arm soreness after bullpens or games.

If someone is really hurting after pitching, he has something wrong and/or is doing something wrong (think poor mechanics, not using entire body - throwing “all arm”, etc.) I don’t think pitchers should get fatigued during games; I mean, think about it - a pitcher throws a pitch, there’s some time between the pitch, and then throws another one. He probably does a total of 5-10 minutes of actual work during a game. The rest of the time, he is standing or sitting around - he isn’t even doing much running. Sure the heat may get to him, but that’s about it. If he is conditioned to throw 100+ pitches, he should be able to do it with little effort. The best pitchers are probably more mentally tired than physically tired; and the ones who know how to use their entire bodies may get a bit fatigued in the legs. You can do all the weight lifting and long toss you want, but if you are not working on increasing your pitch count by throwing with game-like intensity on a regular basis and continually working on improved mechanics, then you will probably get consistently fatigued, staying sore, and possibly end up injured.

#15

Those amendments for USSSA are an improvement. But limiting innings is still insufficient. We once played a team whose pitcher was allowed to throw 50 pitches in one inning. Sad thing was the coach complained when we stole a base with a big lead (was a mental lapse) yet he had no qualms about burning up his pitcher’s arm.

#16

yep we have seen it too, we were playing a team that i knew kids on the other team, my dad was keeping score and the pitcher on the other team had 105 pitches with 2 outs in the 2nd (we were owning them), my dad knew one of the other dads and he texted him about it and then they took him out. my pitching coach wants me at 80 pitches max for the weekend, I got to 100 once this year, but usually my dad has a eye on where i am at.

you know i like stealing with a big lead or doing whatever it takes to put away the other team, they would do it to us

#17

I’ve agreed with much of the things you’ve said…Since you’ve began posting…This statement is where we diverge…I believe the last bit…you have to be conditioned, you do have to throw regularly…but thinking that 100 pitches won’t wear out the vast majority of pitchers is just simply not true…heck my son has always thrown CG’s…I mean since he was 12, he’s in the 90’s in velo (He’s also a monster conditioner and I would venture that not many throw as much as he and I do…just not 100 pitch, game intensity x2 pens per week), and there is no way that the people who he’s worked with…any of em…would want him throwing 2 100 pitch pens in a week…and then throwing a CG.
When he has extended…and I’m referring to in a huge competitive setting going 8 or 9 in a High School outing or having to pitch 2 games a week during the college season…he’s done it via adrenal rush and…every single time…he’s said he could have gone more but the next day was really tough.
Saying they shouldn’t be tired…tells me you’ve not been on the bump…pitching competitively in the heat of summer…I don’t care who it is…they get tired…heck Maddux got tired and he cruised…Jamie Moyer gets tired…and it ain’t heat.
As to pitch counts…I personally sneer at them…as I grew up in an era berift of arm injury and chock full of complete games…the stud pitched until it was won or lost…Gibson, Jenkins, Palmer, Seaver…today? The norm is pitch counts, I deal with it as a part of the game…don’t like it…but I don’t like rain much either…something we have to deal with, don’t see it really changing.

#18

I’m like Barbara Mandrell (???) I used Pitch Counts when Pitch Counts weren’t cool. 8) But I didn’t use them like they are used today. More like a crutch! I knew what my son was capable of based on his general health, how he looked on the mound, what we had planned in the near future and what his performance was in the recent past. I used to keep track of every pitch so I could go back and recreate a bad inning or a good one and find out what went wrong or right. In this way I was able to keep a real finger on his pulse so to speak, rather than rely on him to come tell me his arm hurt, when it was too late. Of course, there came a time when other coaches used him like a paper towel and just discarded him when they were done. That’s when all that modeling proper conditioning and arm care comes in handy and hopefully your son keeps track just like you used to. Bullpens were never at real game intensity. That’s a place where we worked on repeating your mechanics, hitting your spots, and getting some confidence in a new pitch. The day before a game, a short bullpen just to get a feel for your pitches and you are ready to paint the picture tomorrow.

#19

Hair-do and all??? I bet they really liked you when you pulled over some Hell’s Angels or Outlaws :shock: :shock:

#20

It was against my better judgement to have used a metaphor when an allegory was much more suited. With you lurking out there, targeting all my posts I should have known better. I’m starting to feel like littlelefty. Maybe I should change my screen name to littledino.

Perhaps a dying metaphor says it best…:“It is what it is.” :lol: And by the way Barbara was hot… especially with the Hair-do and all. I’m sure you were a closet admirer. :lol:

And now back to pitch counts…