Pitch Count Seasonal Recomendation


#1

If the seasonal pitch count recommendation for a 10-11 year old is 1000 pitches total, does this number include game pitches only or does it incorporate all pitches, such as bullpen sessions, warming up, etc.?

Thanks.


#2

it means games. cause your just warming up. not going all out. the ones in the games is what hey are talking about


#3

It means game time pitches to live batting. Not warming up, not pre inning pitches only pitches that are in a game.


#4

Could someone point me to where these recommendations are posted? That’s a much higher number than I would have expected. Thanks in advance for your help.


#5

Here is a site that talks about some of the numbers you are looking for, remember that these were recomendations from 2006 but I can’t find anything more recent:

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/usabaseball.htm

My kids pitching coach never talks about the yearly limits but does talk about 80-90 pitches a weekend for him at 13U. I think that will go up to 85-95 at 14U.


#6

Thanks again, buwhite. I was afraid I had allowed my son to throw too much this past spring, which may have contributed to his arm injury. But, according to these guidelines, it wasn’t as bad as I feared. He never pitched more in a week than they suggest, and he wasn’t even close on the seasonal pitch count (right around 750 total).

That said, he did thow 102 pitches in one game and 92 in another, but beyond that he stayed right around 75 to 80 pitches an outing. And in the two games he went longer, he looked as strong at the end as he did at the beginning of the game. He averaged less than 14 pitches an inning, so he was pretty efficient in his outings.


#7

I always watch out for if my kid looks tired and then his coaches as well as I am very particular about the pitch limit for the weekend. Also during the season I try to get him to take care of his arm by not throwing a football. He has started to run poles vs icing after games, it seems to be much better for him and his arm gets back in shape sooner. 1 pole for every 20 pitches.


#8

“SEEMS” is an alert word to me. What are you judging it against, and what has his Dr suggested? Do you keep a personal log to be sure what you’re feeling is really what’s happening?


#9

There are so many factors that have an effect on a pitcher’s arm health, no pitch count number could possibly protect him from everything. So, just because he threw fewer pitches, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t “overused”.

Take a look at pages 22, 23, and 28 of http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/pitching10.pdf

Do a bit of reading about pitcher abuse points too. If you like, I can give you a quick and dirty on them. BTW, the numbers are for a HSV team.


#10

Not sure what your point is, over the last few years he has iced and then last year he started running poles instead after the games and he says that his arm definately feels stronger quicker by not icing. A few times he was a little sore even after running and those occasions he iced also. His pitching coach recomended it to him and he really hasn’t steered him wrong yet. Sorry about the word “Seemed” but I don’t try and make blanket definative statements based on my son’s situation, I only said it “Seems” much better for him based on a full year of pitching, he does have a pitching log and his pitching is limited to 85-95 pitches per weekend and comes no where close to what I have read is abusive numbers.


#11

I sure don’t want to imply the boy isn’t being truthful, but you might want to do more investigation than just accepting what he “feels” from one year to the next. That’s a very long time to remember. I’m not saying it isn’t so. But I’m one of those strange people who likes to see things quantified, and I don’t know how one could possibly quantify a feeling.

Like I said, I’m not calling BS on anyone, but I am saying that since I’ve been there and done that, if I were to do it all over again, when it came to my son’s arm, I’d never make a major change in what I was doing without 1st checking with a suitable MD or the equivalent.

I think its great that he keeps a log, but why only for weekends? Doesn’t he ever throw during the week? Surely he’s not doing his bull pens on the weekend too.

I don’t know what you’ve read is “abusive”, but whatever it is, I’d cast a wary eye toward it. FI, 45 pitches on Sat and 50 on Sun COULD be much more taxing than 95 on either day.

As I said, I think its great that the boy keeps a weekend log because it’s a lot more than 99.9% of amateur pitchers normally do. I’m just saying that there’s more to it, and not to just stop at weekends.

Out of curiosity, what does your boy say when he sees every ML pitcher wrapped up in ice within minutes of completing an outing? Does he laugh at them for wasting their time, and does he think the $$$ the teams spend on medical and training staff is wasted too?

My old friend tells me there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and how a pitcher cares to that most valuable of commodities is no different. I wish him and you nothing but the best. :wink:


#12

Regarding the pitch count recommendations somebody once said this and I agree:

[quote]As I’ve said before, in an ideal world we do not need pitch count rules. Pitch counts should ideally be used as a guideline; the best rule would be that a pitcher & coach always remove the pitcher when he becomes fatigued and do not allow him to pitch again until he feels completely recovered.

We don’t have a perfect Star Trek fatigue-o-meter, but the human body itself is actually extremely smart. When a pitcher feels fatigued, that is his brain and nervous system giving him valuable feedback that his body needs to rest. If you think about it, the “best rule” described above is pretty much what Major League teams do with their million-dollar arms.

However we do not live in an ideal world where youth players/parents/coaches always have the best knowledge or even the best intentions. For various reasons, youth pitchers and the adults in charge do not always look for fatigue and do not always take the kid out when he is fatigued. Instead, they often try to get the most out of the young pitcher without proper concern about the future price. Pitching limits are then the next best solution. However whatever limits are set will always be too limiting for some kids and dangerously loose for other kids. Furthermore, a small percentage of kids/adults will actually try to “game” whatever system is put in place, by scheduling the amount kids pitch on certain days, playing in multiple leagues, etc.

So again, the best solution is to avoid fatigue. Pitch counts are a tool to help. But none of this will work well, without education and spreading good information. We can all help with this.[/quote]


#13

Sure. See Table 2 of the following peer reviewed medical article by orthopedic surgeons:

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Tools/baseball/articles/Prevention%20of%20Arm%20Injury%20in%20Youth%20Baseball%20Pitchers.pdf

:slight_smile:


#14

Dino,

That statement is very true, and it’s a reason that one should always cast a jaundiced eye on what anyone tries to declare as the one and only guideline. Its like that 1,000 pitches per season. I’ve seen more than a few very knowledgeable people say bull pens should be included, especially if it’s a “full bore” type of pen, which not all of them are.

And that table, as great a guideline as it is, its dangerous to go solely by it without also considering rest. Those things are only guidelines and one must use some common sense as well as a barebones table.


#15

No one said that that table is the “sole guideline”. KCDawg asked where pitching “recommendations” can be found, and I answered him: I gave him the pitching “recommendations” found in that medical article.

By the way, if you or anyone else here knows of a better, more compelling medical article on youth pitching overuse and injuries, please do fill us in.

It speaks volumes as to the credibility of that medical article (published in 2008) that no one here has been able to find a single medical (or other) contravening article. Asking questions about baseball in Japan, yes, but producing a contravening article, no. :lol:


#16

Guidelines and recommendations…I really like the fact that you offered us an article that we can include in how we make judgements on pitching.


#17

Exactly. For example:

  • The ASMI medical article recommends a maximum of 50 pitches per game and 75 pitches per week for my son’s league age (9). Our Little League has a slightly looser standard: 75 pitches per game and 75 pitches per week. As his Manager and father, I’ll go somewhere in between: 60 pitches per game and 75 pitches per week. But I won’t blithely dismiss the article and allow him 200 pitches per week because someone here has questions about baseball in Japan.

  • The ASMI medical article recommends a maximum of 2000 pitches per year for my son’s league age (9). As his Manager and father, I won’t go that far: maybe 1500 pitches per year, as he’s still 8 although “league age” 9. But I won’t blithely dismiss the article and allow him 3000 pitches per year because someone here has questions about baseball in Japan.

  • The ASMI medical article recommends two days rest if a player my son’s league age (9) throws 34-42 game pitches. Our Little League has a slightly looser standard: two days rest for 36-50 game pitches. As his Manager and father, I’ll follow our Little League standard as it has worked well in the past. But I won’t blithely dismiss the article and allow him to pitch with few or no days rest because someone here has questions about baseball in Japan.

  • The ASMI medical article recommends that for at least three months a year a pitcher should not play any baseball, perform any throwing drills, or engage in any overhead activity such as football quarterback, competitive swimming, javelin throwing, etc. As his father, I just gave him 3 1/2 months off this summer to swim in the pool, play some basketball, and play chess. Next year it may be 4 or 5 months off; other years it may be 2 months off. But I won’t blithely dismiss the article and allow him to pitch 12 months out of the year because someone here has questions about baseball in Japan.

This is how one uses guidelines. You follow them. Not always to a “T”, but generally. Especially guidelines determined and set by expert medical orthopedic surgeons after scientific study and analysis that to date have not been contravened by a singe credible person.

PS. It’s interesting that for all the Little League bashing I see here, Little League actually has some looser pitch counts than those recommended in the ASMI medical article. Hmmm. I wonder if there’s a connection there: The Little League bashers being the same people who try to raise doubt about the ASMI medical article? That would make sense: They hate the Little League pitch counts, and so they hate the stricter ASMI medical article pitch counts even more! The pieces of the puzzle are coming together! :!:


#18

[quote=“scorekeeper”]Dino,

That statement is very true, and it’s a reason that one should always cast a jaundiced eye on what anyone tries to declare as the one and only guideline. Its like that 1,000 pitches per season. I’ve seen more than a few very knowledgeable people say bull pens should be included, especially if it’s a “full bore” type of pen, which not all of them are.

And that table, as great a guideline as it is, its dangerous to go solely by it without also considering rest. Those things are only guidelines and one must use some common sense as well as a barebones table.[/quote]

Thanks everyone for their responses. I’ve decided to include my sons (10u age, just turned 11) Tuesday bullpen sessions since he goes full board as if it is game situation. That’s 10 weeks at 40 pitches, which leaves 600 game pitches. At most, he’ll throw 40 game pitches a week (Saturday games) during Fall Ball for a maximum of nine games. I feel comfortable about this schedule.

There will be more pressure in the Spring for him to pitch more, and I’ll need to set a schedule up to assure plenty of rest between bullpen and game pitching so he stays within the recommendations. I know of three TT that have asked about his potential of playing TT Ball next spring - it should be interesting . …

[size=9](BTW, last year as a 9U player he pitched just slightly less than 1000 pitches during the entire year, excluding bullpen. But his bullpen sessions were not as focused as they are this year.)[/size]


#19

[quote=“littlelefty”]No one said that that table is the “sole guideline”. KCDawg asked where pitching “recommendations” can be found, and I answered him: I gave him the pitching “recommendations” found in that medical article.

By the way, if you or anyone else here knows of a better, more compelling medical article on youth pitching overuse and injuries, please do fill us in.

It speaks volumes as to the credibility of that medical article (published in 2008) that no one here has been able to find a single medical (or other) contravening article. Asking questions about baseball in Japan, yes, but producing a contravening article, no. :lol:[/quote]

JEEZ! No one said you said any such thing! All I was trying to do was insure that no one just followed the one table without considering anything else. As a matter of fact, I know of several other articles, but I’d be foolish to post them and have to argue with you about it! You make it very hard to want to share anything. I didn’t decide to use this forum to argue with you or anyone else.


#20

shoshonte,

Great decision about the bullpens!

I’m sorry I can’t get this url to link, so you’ll have to cut and paste it if you want to see what I’m talking about. Go to page 30 at this site. www infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/cpitching.pdf

Keep just the info needed to produce that report for your son as long as he pitches and you’ll have more info than 99.99% of all the amateur pitchers in the world. If you have any questions, please just ask.