Opinions on this delivery. Young 13yr old


#1

:smiley:

Wanted some opinions on my son’s delivery. CADAD and RYAN T jump in!

Currently topping out at 75MPH with good accuracy. Playing on a AAU 9th grade team at the moment as an eight grader.


#2

Wow, I love the leg lift! Hard to be sure from the angle, but it looks like he may be landing a bit open. :smiley:


#3

3rd generation you are right. He is landing a bit open and that does happen from time to time. I Wanted him to land a bit closed with toe pointing towards the Batter in the batters box. We have been working with his rotation into footplant but sometimes when he uses his hips he opens up a bit.

Good catch! :lol:


#4

Can’t see the clip for some reason. I’ll check on my home PC tonight to see if it comes up on that one.


#5

Sometimes when you are using your work PC it will not display images or the internet setting are off. I had to adjust mine to work as well.


#6

it looks to me like he should extend his leg more, make it more straight as he leads with it before planting … he brings the leg down but never extends at the knee … I see pedro, clemens and mussina straighten their legs more in their strides, so I figure that’s what you do … I’m certainly no expert on the physics of this stuff … yeah, but his leg kick is great and the motion looks very fluid, except for that bent leg which looks awkward to me…


#7

My 2 cents. A good , powerful motion…however I dont like the excess movement to the 1b side at release . Stay a little more closed and focus on a balanced finish … resulting loss of power with possible added stress to throwing arm , & the excessive movement away from target line cant help promote consistent location.


#8

Stride leg stays bent from knee lift to foot strike which results in a short stride that is too open. The short stride is not only visible to the eye but is also indicated by the pivoting foot turning over and then lifting off the ground instead of dragging. I feel these mechanics contribute to planting in an open position.

I’d want to see him get the hips going towards the target more agressively (i.e. sooner and faster). This should force him to extend the stride leg more thus increasing his stride and probably closing him up a bit.


#9

Your son’s got very, very nice mechanics. Nice rhythm. Great arm action. These are things that aren’t easy to teach – or learn – at 15.

I, too, agree with Roger that his stride’s a pinch short. Roger has some nice comments on that.

Let me add just one more thing that hasn’t been mentioned. Notice how your son’s throwing arm finishes around his waist after he releases the pitch? Ideally, it should be a little lower (throwing elbow finishing outside his stride knee). It’ll force him to bend a little more at the waist in his follow through, which will help to keep his momentum moving forward, instead of falling so dramatically to the 1st-base side.

However, Felix Hernandez finishes way off to the 1st-base side (see a nice pitching analysis of “King Felix” by Chris McCoy at www.pitchsmarter.com), and he throws really hard! So this is merely a suggestion. There are pitchers a plenty who fall off to the side.


#10

I can see why he throws so hard. He does a great job of keeping his hips closed and rotates his hips well ahead of his shoulders.

I also really like the action of his glove-side arm.

However, I also see a couple of things that give me pause from the standpoint of injury prevention…

  1. He seems to take his pitching arm side elbow above and behind his shoulders (see frame 2:16 of 3:23). I am concerned that this may put additional strain on the rotator cuff. I would watch out for shoulder problems in the future.

  2. His elbow seems to be bent something like 135 degrees as it passes by his ear (ala Mark Prior) rather than the more typical 90 degrees. This will increase the force with which his forearm flies out. I would take seriously any complaints of elbow pain (especially loss of sensation in the elbow and pain at the tip of the elbow).

  3. He seems to stiffen his glove-side leg as his shoulders come around. This will give him a velocity boost, but may place more strain on his body than it can handle. Again, I would take very seriously any complaints of elbow or shoulder problems.


#11

I disagree.

I’m just fine with the action of his glove-side leg.

By keeping the knee bent it helps him keep his hips closed longer which then allows them to quickly and powerfully open (which then quickly and powerfully pulls the torso and shoulders around). I think that explains his high velocity given his age.

There are many pros who do this.


#12

I also noticed that his pitching arm side foot seems to pop straight up in the air rather than dragging forward.


#13

After reviewing all the comments I’d like to say thanks. The son will work on keeping his front foot closed and getting the hips in motion. He also wanted to say that the mound had a huge pothole in front . Hence the landing.

I will work on all of these items. Also for those who are concerned about injuries, he hasn’t complained of a sore shoulder or elbow in 3 years. The last time he did was at 10 years old when a little league dad who followed another so called Guru didn’t know what he was doing.

I will post a clip a month from now after we work on everything. Thanks guys.


#14

Looks like he finishes short to me, getting him to extend to the target would/should/could/ reduce the head violence and get him squared to finish in a position to field…might make him have better control.
Got the look down though…


#15

Some thoughts:

  1. Much too slow and mechanical until he has to throw. Work on a quicker tempo. I’d be interested in knowing the frame count (at 30 fps) from high knee lift to release.

  2. Stride far too short. The lift of the back foot that the other so rightly caught, I believe, would be cured by a longer drive by the front hip in the stride.

  3. That front knee/leg action is a must to change. Again, a better front hip drive during a longer stride will maybe help here.

jdfromfla. Why would a pitcher want to get “squared to finish”? This idea of “getting into a good fielding position” gets thrown about a lot but I just don’t know why. The vast majority of the pros just don’t do this. Actually, I’ve been hard pressed to find one other than Mussina who even approximates this kind of finish. If a kid is attempting to finish like that, he’s in danger of not completing his rotation, which is paramount. Are you suggesting that one should finish with a nice flat back finish and then quickly bounce back up again so that he can be “squared to finish” and be in a “good fielding position”? I doubt it. There isn’t time for that.

I propose that a pitcher’s first responsibility is to pitch. After that has been completed to the best of his ability, if a ball is hit such that he can get at it, go for it and “field your position”. Don’t put “finishing square” in order to be in a good “fielding position” into their minds. Finish the pitch, completely, protect yourself, then see if you can help out on defence.


#16

[quote=“dm59”]Some thoughts:

  1. Much too slow and mechanical until he has to throw. Work on a quicker tempo. I’d be interested in knowing the frame count (at 30 fps) from high knee lift to release.

  2. Stride far too short. The lift of the back foot that the other so rightly caught, I believe, would be cured by a longer drive by the front hip in the stride.

  3. That front knee/leg action is a must to change. Again, a better front hip drive during a longer stride will maybe help here.

Why would a pitcher want to get “squared to finish”? This idea of “getting into a good fielding position” gets thrown about a lot but I just don’t know why.

All points well taken. His accuracy is pretty good since he is now the closer for this team. Just wanted to tweak his stride a bit and you guys are helpful, thanks.
Thanks everyone … post a clip in about a month. :lol:


#17

Maddox, Clemmons, Nolan Ryan, Mussina…Pedro…Beckett, ask Matt Clemmont if he would like to finish in a position to field…no what I am suggesting is that if you follow through to the target in the instant your post foot comes down you “are” in a fielding position and not looking at the first base dugout. Gosh I don’t know how many times I’ve heard chest to glove, that doesn’t mean fall off to first base, it promotes a movement toward home, now that we are asking rhetorical questions, just how can any instance of an “off balance” situation (Falling off to first is just that) assist anything other than possible injury? This doesn’t mean that you cannot be successful falling off to 1st base Bob Gibson was the worst I ever saw doing that, I just think it is a better way for a younger pitcher to control his stuff, be smoother and have less opportunity for off-balance type injurys.
I’ve personally been at clinics where Jeff Torberg, Randy Meyers and Bobby Abadacka advocated such a presentation, so it isn’t exactly a non-mainstream postion that I’m taking.


#18

[quote=“dm59”]Some thoughts:

  1. Much too slow and mechanical until he has to throw. Work on a quicker tempo. I’d be interested in knowing the frame count (at 30 fps) from high knee lift to release.

  2. Stride far too short. The lift of the back foot that the other so rightly caught, I believe, would be cured by a longer drive by the front hip in the stride.

  3. That front knee/leg action is a must to change. Again, a better front hip drive during a longer stride will maybe help here.

jdfromfla. Why would a pitcher want to get “squared to finish”? This idea of “getting into a good fielding position” gets thrown about a lot but I just don’t know why. The vast majority of the pros just don’t do this. Actually, I’ve been hard pressed to find one other than Mussina who even approximates this kind of finish. If a kid is attempting to finish like that, he’s in danger of not completing his rotation, which is paramount. Are you suggesting that one should finish with a nice flat back finish and then quickly bounce back up again so that he can be “squared to finish” and be in a “good fielding position”? I doubt it. There isn’t time for that.

I propose that a pitcher’s first responsibility is to pitch. After that has been completed to the best of his ability, if a ball is hit such that he can get at it, go for it and “field your position”. Don’t put “finishing square” in order to be in a good “fielding position” into their minds. Finish the pitch, completely, protect yourself, then see if you can help out on defence.[/quote]

Good points D.M. A pitchers job is to pitch effectively and get hitters out. Changing any mechanical function strictly to try and make the pitcher a better fielder is not a productive effort for the pitcher. If he can field its a bonus what matters is he pitchers successfully and efficiant for him.

I got this kid at about 22 frames give or take a frame either way, thats pretty good.

HE does have major league arm action, it is very nice!

Stride could be a little longer, you hit the nail right on the head in regards to the effect it may have in my opinion.


#19

[quote=“jdfromfla”]Maddox, Clemmons, Nolan Ryan, Mussina…Pedro…Beckett, ask Matt Clemmont if he would like to finish in a position to field…[/quote]I have video of each of these, except Clemmont and they ALL finish with the throwing shoulder and arm completely followed through and the hips rotated fully as well. I would not categorize this as a “good fielding position”. I agree 100% with chinmusic in that being able to field a ball after the pitch has been completed with no compromise is a BONUS.

[quote=“jdfromfla”]Gosh I don’t know how many times I’ve heard chest to glove, that doesn’t mean fall off to first base,…[/quote]I’ve not recommended that one should “fall off to first base”. That would be taking my comments too far.

[quote=“jdfromfla”]…just how can any instance of an “off balance” situation (Falling off to first is just that) assist anything other than possible injury?[/quote]Again, I didn’t mention anything about an off balance situation or falling off to first. Quoting something I did not say doesn’t negate what I did say.

A pitcher must flex forward with the trunk while rotating the shoulders and do this while on the opposite foot only. This mandates a lean to that side but not necessarily a “fall to first base”. My point is that, if you finish your pitch into a nice flat back finish with the throwing hand/arm following through to an area to the outside of the plant leg and the shoulder “buried”, you will not automatically be in a “good fielding position”. One should not compromise the pitch by attempting to be so linear, toward the plate, that the fundamental purpose of being out there is lessened. Now, that doesn’t mean that one should go from one extreme to the other either and concentrate on rotation only.

Pitch first, completely, then field the position. Bonus.


#20

Once again thanks to everyone and I value everyone’s opinion. Here is what I wanted to share.

  1. This past 4 months we have worked on arm action. I did have an issue with this about 2 years ago when he appeared to be pushing the ball. I think we got that done and he does have a fluid motion.

  2. Before he was going straight to the plate. Chin to the plate and chest to the glove a la the school of Tom House. After reviewing many video clips we noticed he may be throwing across his body.

  3. Also, after reviewing many clips of some major leaguers, most hard throwers tend to fall off to the 1st base side. In the current clip I posted he really was rearing back to throw the ball hard. Now although in the clip he looks like he is falling off a cliff but the majority of the time he takes a step.

  4. The never ending battle of perfect mechanics is something he is trying to accomplish. Heck why would I post a clip for the whole world to see and share. I value many opinions and having 25 additional eyes and ears is great to have.

  5. The Towel Drill- say what you want but it really helps lengthen the stride. We did it a while back , then we ditched it, but it may make a comeback because looking at past photos he had a longer stride. We will try it again and see what we come up with. (OPinions on this one please).

:lol: The son has read all of the above clips. He wanted to say thanks to everyone .