O'Leary Pitching


#1

I saw the site but I don’t agree with copying mechanics and I always have my elbow above my shoulder. Do you agree, disagree. Do you have any proof that your mechanics prevent injury Chris. :baseballpitcher:


#2

There isn’t really any scientific evidence that supports this, but from the research I have done there is a much higher injury rate from players that hyperabduct their arm than player that do not… One other thing to note is, although it can possibly be more dangerous to have an inverted W, V, or L, pitchers that do, IMO can normally pitch harder.

There is a thread specifically on this topic. Go to the golden threads and look for the one labeled, “High Elbow”.

Hope this helps :slight_smile:


#3

yes having your elbow higher than your shoulder puts you at a much greater risk for having shoulder problems.


#4

[quote=“tdbaseball”]yes having your elbow higher than your shoulder puts you at a much greater risk for having shoulder problems.[/quote]This has been argued over and over on this, and other, sites. Here are some of the questions on the topic.

  1. What evidence do you have supporting this?
  2. What is it about this that is so damaging?
  3. At what point in the delivery does the elbow get above the shoulder
  4. Can you show us a pic of what you’re speaking of?

#5

I have hijacked too many threads on this issue not to speak out here on it.
First let me say that Lets Talk Pitching is by my reconning the last place that hasn’t run him off or forced him to “voluntarily” leave due to intense criticism on the net…excepting his own site.
Steven Ellis has determined that the posters on this site have the right to hear as many different view points and contrary or controversial view points to those views. We only ask for civil, respectful debate on the subject at hand and generally allow the poster to make up their own mind as to who is or isn’t providing practical advice.
That said, I’ve challenged Chris on several points over time and the last thread in which this occured he apparently decided he would leave the site.
I have provided evidence which controverts his injury theories…in particular his constant unsubstantiated scurrilous claims about Mark Prior…this evidence was the published and public record of major league baseball, which showed that a man with “The worst mechanics” in baseball…had become one of the greatest pitchers in college history and had begun his MLB career as a great and feared…injury free starting pitcher…never showing any sign that he was breaking down or even missing starts. The two seminal moments came when he collided on the basepaths with Marcus Giles, injuring his shoulder and when he took a line drive off of his elbow and sustained crush injury on the tendons and ligaments as well a crush fracture. O’Leary apparently disputes this proof and convieniently forgets about everything except that he “says” his mechanics are terrible. Having never seen a single medical document as to Priors health…so without the medical record, the performance history, with only the mearest (and in a world where experience makes prudent coaches and trainers keep judgement to themselves) experience looking at photos and film (Not actively training players at a high level)…he has put forth this flimsy unintelligent speculation.
He states that he has the ear of scouts and triumphantly posts a letter by a single doctor who says he might be on to something…as far as the arm may be harmed in the athletic endevor of throwing…duh…Name a single athletic motion that does not have injury associated. This doctor doesn’t mention the many other aspects that attribute to the art and the “scouts” have never been named. Not to dispute that they may or may not exist…just remember that just because a scout or 2 listen doesn’t mean anything other than they are listening…
He is a relentless marketer and has had success at marketing…ok I get that…
So the premise from which he’s managed to con…and I’m sorry, when you attempt to pass off unscientific speculation…not even meeting the criteria of theory…as fact and hold it up as fact by using an example that is false…you are fooling people and making money doing it, which is a con. He does this by throwing up still pictures of guys who got injured and saying “ah ha” he does this so he’s hurt…after the fact…with no examination of medical records, with no performance history to put it in perspective…just don’t have your elbow at point x or you’ll be Billy Wagner (Bad Bad Billy, why, he’d be better than one of the best ever if just he’d listen to Chris…it’s that absurd) and one of the greatest relievers ever who has 10’s of millions of dollars in the bank (Now someone please makes sense of that for me…please!)…has he been injured? Sure he has…one of the apparent tradeoffs for throwing the ball 100 mph is that any misstep or miscue and you face injury…the only exceptions being apparently Nolan Ryan and The Rocket…ooops both of them had injury…just in the case of Ryan his sugeries were off season.
So “caveat emptor”, enjoy the pictures…examine the real record and hold your wallet close. But my personal opinon is that he is making money off of well meaning people who just want to help their kid…which makes him someone I will challenge…and have begun to hold in contempt, which makes me determined to expose him…I know some will still be swayed but at least I have provided a counter and the reference to back up my claims, so some may not be fooled.


#6

[quote=“jdfromfla”]…one of the apparent tradeoffs for throwing the ball 100 mph is that any misstep or miscue and you face injury…[/quote] :drunkard: Hey jd. A good ol’ Nova Scotia salute to ya for that. I’ve said to Roger before that I believe if you were to plot on a chart the stats of injury vs velocity, you’d see that the injury rate goes up exponentially as you pass 90 and go higher. I have no proof of this but I’d be very curious to see that chart actually plotted.


#7

DM & JD, I am a believer as well in that theory. Reminds me of a time when a coach of mine broke my heart, saw me icing my arm and said “son, that’s a waste of good ice, you really don’t throw hard enough to put that much trauma on your arm”. Nice bedside manner…but years later, I came to understand what he was trying to say…


#8

[quote=“terprhp”], “son, that’s a waste of good ice, you really don’t throw hard enough to put that much trauma on your arm”.[/quote] :lol: Now that’s funny. Hard to hear when it’s about yourself but it is funny nonetheless.


#9

I can honestly say that since I stopped reading Chris O’Learys’ stuff about inverted L, W, or V being bad, or in general, good scap loading, I’ve thrown much harder.

Paul Nyman’s stuff has really helped throw harder. Personally, I don’t even have those “inverted” arm actions, but I scap load with my elbows and such, which Chris doesn’t like, and I have increased velocity at a very surprising rate. I mean, I couldn’t believe what was happening every time I threw, I seemed to throw harder.


#10

[quote=“Bakersdozen”]I can honestly say that since I stopped reading Chris O’Learys’ stuff about inverted L, W, or V being bad, or in general, good scap loading, I’ve thrown much harder.

Paul Nyman’s stuff has really helped throw harder. Personally, I don’t even have those “inverted” arm actions, but I scap load with my elbows and such, which Chris doesn’t like, and I have increased velocity at a very surprising rate. I mean, I couldn’t believe what was happening every time I threw, I seemed to throw harder.[/quote]

Im with 13 on this. Listening to Nyman, i gained 15+mph this offseason without any noticeable change in anything but my arm action. O’leary puts up some solid points, but i don’t see them as probable to increase velocity such as Nyman’s teachings do.


#11

This is just one example of why O’Leary bailed out…

From his website:

From The DenverPost: Date February 19, 2009

He didn’t want to explain how this one slipped through the five hole… :roll:


#12

by no means am i trying to get into an argument or support chris at all. i am just an 18 year old that is coming off a serious shoulder surgery and through personal experience and the words of doctors and therapists having the elbow above the shoulder is troublesome.

i dont mean elbow above the shoulder in regards to any inverted letter you want to throw out there. i mean from power position through acceleration and release, the elbow should not be above the shoulder.

while i was throwing with a torn labrum i noticed that when i threw like i normally did, high elbow over the top it would hurt. whenever i dropped down to a low 3/4s or sidearm the pain went significantly down. take what you want from.


#13

Well-said, tdbaseball.

Re: "…i mean from power position through acceleration and release, the elbow should not be above the shoulder. "

-----I believe that specific conclusion has been offered by Andrews & Fleisig in published work from studies they conducted at the ASMI. If you like, I could dig back through my archives and find their paper.

This problem is also one of the reasons that it is so risky to teach young pitchers to throw “over the top” like Sandy Koufax, or Hideo Nomo, or whomever…

Those role-models for the “over the top” delivery had fine mechanics but the fact is: They leaned their torsos away from the throwing side to get their high arm-slots, and they were still able to maintain good dynamic balance in their deliveries. Relatively few pitchers, even at the pro level, actually throw “over the top”. Most are 3/4 or low 3/4.

But, it seems like about 90% of amateur coaches, and kids, may think that a pitcher will achieve a high arm-slot just by raising his elbow during the delivery…you hear that all the time at Little League level–“Get yer elbow up, kid”. Well, you can comfortably raise your elbow over your shoulders while standing still (which is the way most coaches coach, by the way) but you can’t do it comfortably or safely during the acceleration phase of a real delivery.


#14

My son started following Oleary this year. He had no prevous pitching experience and only one year in baseball. He weighs 99 lbs throws 60 mph great control and no pain. I will contnue to follow what he is saying. I personally don’t even care if he plays in college, Major league.or high school. He enjoys playing and is having fun I am helping him out as long as he wants to do it . What Chris was saying made sense to me. I just didn’t want him to have an injury that would effect him the rest of his life, So for now we will continue to listen to what he says.

Jim


#15

[quote=“jhorton”]

My son started following Oleary this year. He had no prevous pitching experience and only one year in baseball. He weighs 99 lbs throws 60 mph great control and no pain. I will contnue to follow what he is saying. I personally don’t even care if he plays in college, Major league.or high school. He enjoys playing and is having fun I am helping him out as long as he wants to do it . What Chris was saying made sense to me. I just didn’t want him to have an injury that would effect him the rest of his life, So for now we will continue to listen to what he says.

Jim[/quote]

Hi Jim, thanks for posting the video. It’s super that you’ve found something that works. I think that’s really important … much more so than the back and forth that often takes place when comparing instructors. What specifically is your son doing in this video that you picked up from Chris? Can you give us some specific things to key in on? Thanks again.


#16

I basicallly looked at the Clemens and Madox videos and what chris was saying was a good example of a pitcher. staying away from the inverted w, L and so on. I’m still learning about the technical side of pitching so I am relying on resources like this to learn. I never played the game myself. I’m not saying he is the best 12 year old around but for the short time he has been doing it he has done well.


#17

I really didn’t want to post again on this thread, but I am going to do it anyway… I know that their is not really any science behind his theory, but I currently am not using an inverted W or L action just because Chris has kinda scared me. Back when I was really 100% believing his theory I wrote an essay about his theory and made this chart,

Good Mechanical Pitchers Arm Injuries Arm Surgeries Years
Greg maddux 0 0 22
Randy Johnson 0 0 20
Roger Clemens 1 1 24
Nolan Ryan 1 1 27
Tom Seaver 0 0 19
David Wells 0 0 21

Bad Mechanical Pitchers
Chris Carpenter 4 2 11
Mark Prior 5 2 5
BJ Ryan 1 1 9
Kerry Wood 3 1 9
Billy Wagner 4 2 13
Francisco Liriano 2 1 2

I know this is an extremely small amount of pitchers and that this is not really accurate,“I couldn’t find that much info on injuries and stuff,” but the guys that I labeled “Bad Mechanical Pitchers,” do have the inverted letters. It would be really cool if someone had a chart like this with a lot more pitchers and some more detail.

Right now I am not sure what to believe, so it would be great if someone could help out a little more :slight_smile:

Um, somehow when I posted the chart the last time it got all messed up, and it would let me use the tab to fix it, so I had to use the space button to fix it :lol:

Edit: it got messed up again, I don’t know what to do. lol


#18

Steve, to anwser your question more specifically I added a second video. I looked at his analysis of clemens clip by clip. I have tried to have my son’s elbow in the same position at foot strike. Also I liked how he breaks down the bringing back and hiding the ball. I figured if my son’s velocity was average at least he could be deceptive. Chris also talked about the angle of the arm in relation to the shoulders. I’ve tried to teach him to keep his head and plant foot towards target as chris desribes. Our family body type is very similar to Clemens so I thought it practical to have my son mimic him. I think that maybe over looked by some people to the style they choose to use. I am not a pitcher myself but a very good surf caster I know how the body can be used to apply torque effeicently. Chris talks about separation of hips and delayed shoulder rotation to generate torque. I didn’t think any of this was noval but I am from the school of (KISS). So I agree with some of things he says. If you have any other suggestion please by all means share them. I will keep you updated in his progress in the coming years. Since he had never thown a baseball until two years ago we will see how O’leary’s ideas pan out.

Jim


#19

[quote=“jhorton”]Steve, to anwser your question more specifically I added a second video. I looked at his analysis of clemens clip by clip. I have tried to have my son’s elbow in the same position at foot strike. Also I liked how he breaks down the bringing back and hiding the ball. I figured if my son’s velocity was average at least he could be deceptive. Chris also talked about the angle of the arm in relation to the shoulders. I’ve tried to teach him to keep his head and plant foot towards target as chris desribes. Our family body type is very similar to Clemens so I thought it practical to have my son mimic him. I think that maybe over looked by some people to the style they choose to use. I am not a pitcher myself but a very good surf caster I know how the body can be used to apply torque effeicently. Chris talks about separation of hips and delayed shoulder rotation to generate torque. I didn’t think any of this was noval but I am from the school of (KISS). So I agree with some of things he says. If you have any other suggestion please by all means share them. I will keep you updated in his progress in the coming years. Since he had never thown a baseball until two years ago we will see how O’leary’s ideas pan out.

Jim[/quote]

Good for you! I wish you all the best and hope you’ll continue to contribute to the forums. It will be fun to watch your son progress here.


#20

in mr. oleary’s criteria, jaret wright would have one of the better mechanics