New video of son pitching (side view)


#1

http://media.putfile.com/baseball74

This is another video of my son pitching with some adjustments that some of you said would help. He’s not throwing at 100% because he is supposed to throw tomorrow, he’s just throwing to stay sharp. If I can get some feedback that would be great.

p.s it might take longer to load the video, it’s about 53 seconds. It’s there, just be patient.

                                thanks, shermanreed

#2

heres another video from the same day, its just shorter. so it can be loaded faster. here it is, tell me what you think.

http://media.putfile.com/pitching


#3

shermanreed
From this angle, there are 2 things I’d like to mention. The first is the hand break out of the glove. It’s very similar to Billy Wagner’s, being very horizontal and quite high. Now, this obviously isn’t something that will reduce velo since Wagner throws over 100 mph but my concern is for general tension. This isn’t a big problem with this pitcher because his elbow doesn’t go above shoulder height.

The real issue to work on is his first motion from high knee lift. Notice how the knee and foot move horizontally in the first instance. I’d suggest it should drop vertically combined with the right hip moving immediately, which it doesn’t. It stays where it is too long. Get it going sooner.


#4

Thanks big time, dm59, for replying! However, because I am pretty new to the whole video evaluation thing, I’ll need some further expounding. I am not sure what you mean when you say the knee and the foot move horizontally in the first instance. Are you saying they move out away from the body toward the plate together? What do you mean when you say the hip needs to get going? Sorry for being so elementary.

Sherman


#5

Very nice analysis dm59.

My suggestion is to simply start with both hands in the glove. No reason not to. Easier to get a grip – especially as your son gets older and may potentially throw more complex pitches such as a circle change, knuckle curve, or splitter, which require a little more “fumbling” around in the glove. Plus, if he pitches from the full windup with a guy on base, there’s no way he can step off and make a throw if the ball’s in the glove and his hand’s at his side.

It’s a style thing, I know. So there’s no right-wrong here.


#6

[quote=“shermanreed”]I am not sure what you mean when you say the knee and the foot move horizontally in the first instance. Are you saying they move out away from the body toward the plate together? What do you mean when you say the hip needs to get going?[/quote]Sherman
Regarding the foot and knee, what I mean is that they both make a move toward the plate while they are up at that high lift level. This actually would take some energy to do since the natural thing, and the easiest, is to let it drop. Now, I’m not recommending that the foot/knee drops straight down, hits bottom, then moves out. That would be a segmented motion that would cause all of the energy built up to be dissipated without contributing at all. A smooth transition from down to out toward the plate and landing can make use of the kinetic energy in the motion to add to the stride’s momentum in general and the leg’s motion out to landing in particular.

Regarding the hip getting going, I’d suggest that you could do a search for some previous threads where I’ve discussed this issue and Steven Ellis has noted it as well. I’ll describe it here anyway. In MLB pitchers, just as the knee gets to it’s highest point before coming down (approximately, it’s not a precise thing but not much after this), they drive the front hip sideways at the target as the leg comes down. This is a very important motion in the delivery. I suggest that one should focus on this instead of thinking about a drop 'n drive or tall 'n fall cue. It’s a much more productive mental image. Don’t let him drop straight down on the back leg before going forward. Keep a nice, athletic bend in the knee. Not too much but not straight and think “drive the front hip sideways at the target”.

I hope this helps.


#7

dm59:
I got it! That made perfect sense, and I’ll get some more vids to see how my coaching goes. Also, what Steven Ellis says seems smart. It’s funny, when he pitches from the stretch he has both hands in the glove. I think he thinks it looks good when only uses one hand in the initial part of the wind up :slight_smile:


#8

Hi:

What I noticed is that his hand break is not symmetrical. He pull his throwing arm back while is glove side is still in an elbow to plate position. This seems cause him to play catch up with his front side, has he been missing high and outside? Also, he is not staying tall. His post leg is collapsing and he is really reaching to stay on top. That would also contribute to missing high.

Good luck.


#9

In general, I think he looks quite good.

I do agree that he breaks his hands a little high.

I don’t have a problem with his knee lift because he keeps his front hip closed as he strides. He also keeps his shoulders closed as his hips open up.

I really wouldn’t mess with much unless there is a huge problem.


#10

I agree that some pros do this, but I don’t think it’s that important.


#11

When you guys are saying his hand break is high, how far down should the hands come down and what advantage is there in doing this? Arbcounsel, you are the first one so far to hit on a major point of concern I have with my son. He does miss high - consistently, or low and inside - probably over adjusting. Are you suggesting he needs to get his glove moving toward the target sooner?

We do realize he is collapsing his post leg - trying to correct it.

BTW, thanks to everyone for all the help.


#12

[quote=“dm59”]shermanreed
The real issue to work on is his first motion from high knee lift. Notice how the knee and foot move horizontally in the first instance. I’d suggest it should drop vertically combined with the right hip moving immediately, which it doesn’t. It stays where it is too long. Get it going sooner.[/quote]

I agree with the “Get it going sooner” comment. In fact, I’d suggest getting the hips going slightly before the knee reaches its peak. But I disagree with the comment about dropping the knee. Motion that occurs between the starting position and the first forward motion of the torso creates time for base runners to get a jump.[/i]


#13

I agree that some pros do this, but I don’t think it’s that important.[/quote]

I feel it is very important as it is how momentum is initiated.


#14

[quote=“shermanreed”]When you guys are saying his hand break is high, how far down should the hands come down and what advantage is there in doing this? Arbcounsel, you are the first one so far to hit on a major point of concern I have with my son. He does miss high - consistently, or low and inside - probably over adjusting. Are you suggesting he needs to get his glove moving toward the target sooner?

We do realize he is collapsing his post leg - trying to correct it.

BTW, thanks to everyone for all the help.[/quote]

Yes he should move his glove to target simultaneous with his extension of his throwing arm. It is important that as he delivers the pitch he is pulling back with his glove side in order to maximize shoulder rotation. If he is late on extending his glove, then he will start delivery before his glove is properly positioned to pull back, which would primarily effect velocity but also secondarily location. I think that his post leg collapse is more to blame for his missing high. When the back leg collapses the pitcher may attempt (unless you are Tom Seaver) to compensate by trying to get tall again and get over the top The result will be that he is forced to release too soon, resulting in a high pitch.


#15

[quote=“arbcounsel”]
Yes he should move his glove to target simultaneous with his extension of his throwing arm. It is important that as he delivers the pitch he is pulling back with his glove side in order to maximize shoulder rotation. If he is late on extending his glove, then he will start delivery before his glove is properly positioned to pull back, which would primarily effect velocity but also secondarily location. I think that his post leg collapse is more to blame for his missing high. When the back leg collapses the pitcher may attempt (unless you are Tom Seaver) to compensate by trying to get tall again and get over the top The result will be that he is forced to release too soon, resulting in a high pitch.[/quote]

I agree with extending the glove but only to the same extent that the throwing arm is extended back. But I disagree with the pulling of the glove. Far too often that results in the front side flying open meaning the shoulders open up too soon and too much. This results in an inconsistent release point and extra stress on the throwing shoulder. The front arm/glove needs to firm up out front while the torso move to the glove. Front side stability improves consistency.


#16

I don’t know where this idea of pointing the glove at the target comes from. I haven’t seen a pro actually do this. They also don’t combine it with extending the throwing arm back. This is dubious advice at best. If this is such a good idea, why don’t MLB pitchers use it en masse?

I find that the danger in it is, and this isn’t an absolute but a danger, that 2 things can happen. The first being that a kid will turn the glove over and externally rotate the humerus. This can contribute to early opening of the front side. Secondly, you now have a weight on the end of a moment arm. I’ve found that kids will let this eccentrically oriented weight drop down, again contributing to early front side opening.

Now, one could say that you just teach them not to do these things. That could work. My feeling is that these are fights that are really unnecessary for very tenuous benefit. Why not teach them lead arm action like the pros perform?


#17

dm59:
What exactly is lead arm action?


#18

[quote=“shermanreed”]What exactly is lead arm action?[/quote]Good question Sherman. There’s been lots of talk here lately about pointing the glove at the target and then pulling the arm/glove/elbow back to assist with shoulder rotation. It actually started off here with a statement about how Clemens supposedly aggressively pulls the entire arm back behind his body, eventually, to make shoulder rotation more powerful. He doesn’t actually do this, as video of him shows. Then it got to the point where it was said that Clemens pulls the elbow back, for the same reason. The video of him shows that his elbow comes in to his left side, generally, and then, after release, the forearm extends down and back during a full body follow through. This was an example of still images not telling the entire story.

The question is “what should it be?” Tom House has his ideas, some being to “throw the glove out there” and “bring the chest to the glove”. Others say to use the front arm as a “sight” (site??). There seems to be several main concepts floating around internet pitching circles and I encourage others to add more if they’d like.

  1. Use the lead arm in some fashion to help stop early opening of the front side. This is one reason why the “point the glove” recommendation has surfaced. As you know, I don’t subscribe to this method. Another way to do this is to use the lead elbow to look over toward the target, thus combatting early shoulder opening. Although both can work, I dislike the glove pointing for the reasons I stated in an earlier post.

  2. Use the retraction of the lead arm or elbow to assist in increasing the power of shoulder rotation. People often use martial arts to support this argument. I’m not convinced of this one but I’ll let others chime in.

  3. Use the retracted lead arm as the pivot point or axis of rotation for the shoulder complex as a whole. I like this one.

  4. Use the lead arm in the whole “scapula loading” issue. I have a real problem with this one. My question, which I got no answer to on another site, is “what role does scap loading on the lead arm side play?” The idea in scap loading, or loading of any musculature group, is to stretch, under load, rapidly in order to make use of the stretch shortening cycle and elastic energy to make the “unloading” more powerful. Load and unload. Back to my question, why “unload” the lead arm side. I can see why you need to unload the throwing arm side but why the lead arm. All of the video I have indicates to me (and this of course is just my observation of them) that the shoulder and arm complex on the lead side does not forcefully “unload”. What do you think folks?

  5. Make use of the brain’s natural affinity for symmetry or asymmetry in the body and it’s movements. This is the “equal and opposite” issue. Although this is true, I don’t see “equal and opposite” in the pros.

Basiclly, Sherman, there’s lots of debate on this one and I’ve yet to hear a good explanation of what the “active ingredient” is with this. All I know is that the pros I’ve studied tend to generally do the following:

  1. They have a bend in the elbow through the entire motion and only straighten it after the ball has long gone and the body has followed through to “flat back finish”, if they go there (many don’t).
  2. The elbow leads the forearm (of course) in a path that starts from one of being in front of the body (to the 3rd base side in a RHP), and goes somewhat up and across, horizontally crossing the target line, then the elbow comes back, down and in to the hip, or thereabouts. Some let the arm straighten to a degree and there might be an “instant” where the glove might point at the target but it’s a fleeting moment and isn’t an “active ingredient” in the motion.

Come on folks. Give me (us) your thoughts.


#19

[quote=“shermanreed”]dm59:
What exactly is lead arm action?[/quote]

Shermanweed, Im not Dm59 Im also not answering because I think he cant, im offering! The answer to your question is this, Thumb down/elbow up, throwing arm shoulder externally rotated/gloveside internally rotated. How much the arm straightens from the forearm down [gloveside] is more of a comfort ideal, there is room for variance. The real help is coming from the humerus to the point of the elbow not from the elbow to the glove or forearm. Some do pull the glove back but most dont do it with the use of the glovehand, that motion should be initiated by the elbow jabbing back so to speak as the glovehand turns over releasing the shoulder. Trying to use the glove hand will often result in it just dropping down or flailing it out to the side rendering it useless and as DM said pulling the frontside open and down/out. Using the internal rotation from the throwing side the Glove arm turns over [externally rotates] and does nothing out of concious. There should be no real teaching of pulling it back in as its turning over if it happens to some degree naturally thats fine. The pitcher should work his way to the glove the glove does not have to work its way back to the pitcher. Rather than the gloveside being thought of as a faciliater of more power think in terms of it being more a stable base from which to rotate against. This should help ensure the shoulders stay closed which is more important for success than thinking about having to pull it back . Im not saying that some pitchers are not highly effective using the glovesideas some do but many especially kids end up doing more harm than good when they really try to use the gloveside for more velocity.


#20

Good post chinmusic. The idea of maintaining internal rotation of the humerus to combat early opening has been around for a while. The cue of keeping the thumb pointing down really helps in this. Late external rotation of the humerus is a key component. I agree with chinmusic that the lead arm plays a “pivotal” (excuse the pun) role in providing an axis for the throwing shoulder to rotate around. I believe, and this is again only my “belief”, that this is the “active ingredient” I spoke of earlier. Any contribution to shoulder rotation by the pulling back of this is incidental at best. The most bang for the buck is in it’s role as a pivot point. Boy, lot’s of opinion in this one!!!