Momentum


#1

Theres a clip on the high school baseball web. The thread is [how are these mechanics]. This board has had many discussions as of late about momentum into landing. The clip is a perfect example of “momentum into landing”. This is not a large framed pitcher and he throws the ball with authority. I did NOT look any further into the clip I was only interested in the momentum aspect of the delivery for the sake of this discussion although his timing inso how he works his lower with his arm cocking action is very nice. High level pitchers appear to have great timing when it really counts. This kid is no exception!!


#2

I saw that clip and the first thing I noticed was how the pitcher got his hips going early and fast. I just attended the Tom House/NPA certification clinic this last weekend and they are emphasizing getting the hips going even more than when I went last year. They want pitchers to start the hips before lifting the leg.


#3

I think that the hips are a good place to start when looking for mechanics going in to pitching. If you study the Japanese art of pitching, they put more emphsis on your shoulders and getting your arm around in a swift friction free motion to gain velocity and reduce arm and torso strain. I think you should literally start from the “ground up”. Start with the legs and move to the hips, then the shoulders/arm action. Thats how I started, and I hit low 80’s. My mechanics aren’t sloppy or perfect either, but they are above average.


#4

you got a link to the clip?


#5

I’m not sure if this will work but here goes. If not, go to the hsbaseballweb forum and check out the thread chinmusic referred to.

http://s143.photobucket.com/user/4seamer08/library/?acti...rrent=TimLinicum.flv

#6

I forgot about this one. It has several clips of him both from the front and from the open side. Scroll down to #10, Timothy Lincecum.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/draft/y2006/tracker/search.jsp


#7

geez, all this new technology, video, biomechanical studies, plyometrics, explosion principles, scapular loading, etc. … and in the end it was sloppy ol’ Luis Tiant showing us how to do it all along !

i wish i had some video of El Tiante to post … but he pitched long before Al Gore invented the internet … fellow old timers will know what i’m referring to …


#8

whew, give it up for the undersized righty.

Roger, I’ve seen you mention getting the hips going before lifting the leg before. I’m not sure if I’m not understanding what you mean, or maybe you could describe it differently, but I just can’t imagine anyone doing this, i can’t see this as physically possible.

The kid in this clip, to my eyes and to my understanding, doesn’t start his hips going until he reaches the top of his leg lift, which is good and as early as physically possible.

When you say get the hips going early, I take it to mean that you are going against those pitchers like Kazmir who, after they break their leg lift, bring their front foot straight down, hanging their wieght back on the back leg and then carrying their front foot low to the ground, almost scraping the ground as they move forward.

To me, a guy who gets his hips going early is Oswalt, who also doesn’t end up leading with his left foot almost scraping the ground. But even Oswalt, to me, doesn’t get his hips going BEFORE leg lift.


#9

No doubt!

[quote=“andrew.ra.”]Roger, I’ve seen you mention getting the hips going before lifting the leg before. I’m not sure if I’m not understanding what you mean, or maybe you could describe it differently, but I just can’t imagine anyone doing this, i can’t see this as physically possible.

The kid in this clip, to my eyes and to my understanding, doesn’t start his hips going until he reaches the top of his leg lift, which is good and as early as physically possible.[/quote]
Take a closer look. When I watch the video in the first link DM posted above, I see the pitcher take a step back and then a step forward. As he comes forward, his hips start forward as he rotates into a closed position and into knee lift. The whole he’s moving forward his hips are moving toward home plate - they never stop moving. (Compare the edge of his left hip to some object in the background.)

So when does he get his hips going? It looks to me like his hips start when his forward motion starts right after he steps back. And that appears to be right at or slightly before he starts his knee lift. Nolan Ryan did the same thing.

If you get the hips going AND you maintain your same knee lift, then the stride leg will have to get quicker getting into foot strike or else you’ll fall down. This means the stride foot will probably need to take a more direct (diagonal) path to foot strike than the up-down-out path. It also means the mass of one of your heaviest limbs moving faster will help you build more linear momentum which can then be transferred into rotational momentum.

Keep in mind that the “getting the hips going” thing doesn’t mean we’re off to the races. I think Lincicum is an exception and most people can’t come close to his delivery. For most pitchers, we’re talking about a small adjustment in when and how fast the hips go. Remember nothing is black and white - it’s all shades of grey.

I suppose the NPA could be proposing this as just a teaching tool that makes pitchers over-exagerate things as a way to help them make the smaller adjustment but that wasn’t the interpretation I came away with. Maybe I’ll shoot the NPA an email and ask.


#10

Roger or Chin,
Can you explain the sequence that House uses to get a pitcher’s hips moving forward. I do see this pitcher’s hips get going to the plate, even as he begins his leg lift. However, even the info on the website called his delivery a bit odd, even leading some to worry about his endurance. What is supposed to be the end result of the getting the hips moving sooner? Better control? Greater velocity? And is this considered new? Which Pros do this? I ask because I truly want to know. I admit, it sure looks like his delivery would generate a bunch of force moving to the plate.

I’ve read many times about “getting the hips moving sooner.” This is the first time I could see what it looked like.


#11

To get the hips moving forward, is the pitcher supposed to push off the rubber? Or does he fall toward the plate? It would seem to me he must push toward the plate, if not explode toward the plate. This is what I mean when I asked for the sequence that Tom House teaches.


#12

I was worried about how much impact on the front foot (Seems out of control until foot strike), then I read the blurb on the MLB site and was comforted that they felt the same way I did about how long he can do that before it causes an owwie. At mid 90’s it looks like they are willing to take that chance. I’d bet somebody lunch that he, at the next level, is coached to a smoother less rushed delivery. What is that stride length? 20 maybe 30 feet? Seaver esque anyone?


#13

I’m a Giants fan, and every Giants fan is excited about this guy Lincecum. He is very explosive, and I’ve read some articles about him and they said he uses all of his body to throw that hard, hitting the high-90s.
He has a nasty curve/slider and a good fastball, can’t wait til he hits the MLB level!

He does remember me of Oswalt a little.


#14

[quote=“shermanreed”]Roger or Chin,
Can you explain the sequence that House uses to get a pitcher’s hips moving forward.[/quote]
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “sequence”. House simply teaches pushing the hips toward the target earlier in your knee lift. In fact, I was just re-certified by House and the NPA last week and they were teaching us to push the hips right before lifting the knee.

I feel this pitcher takes it to an extreme that requires a great deal of functional strength and flexibility. A lot of times, as pitchers age they lose flexibility. I’d expect him to tone it down over time.

Getting the hips going earlier and faster does a number of things. First, the less time you take, the less that can go wrong. In particular, you will be less likely to open the shoulders too soon or too much. This helps improve consistency of release point (which, in turn, helps you hit your spots, improves deception, and improves movement) and it reduces stress on the arm. Getting the hips going also helps you build momentum and get your release point closer to home plate (which gives the batter less time to see the ball).

I don’t claim to know all facets of the philosophies taught by the other pitching “gurus”. I think one or more of them teach leading with the hips from a mechanical standpoint but I’m not aware of any others besides House teaching it from a timing standpoint (i.e. getting into foot strike quicker).

The obvious one that comes to mind is Nolan Ryan. Maybe Randy Johnson? I’d also check out Anthony Reyes as House worked with him a bit. I’m not sure who else.

[quote=“shermanreed”]I ask because I truly want to know. I admit, it sure looks like his delivery would generate a bunch of force moving to the plate.

I’ve read many times about “getting the hips moving sooner.” This is the first time I could see what it looked like.[/quote]
Obviously this is not absolutely necessary to be successful becaue no doubt there are pro pitchers that don’t do this (probably taught to “stay back”). But if it increases your chance for success or if it helps you become successful more quickly, then it’s worthwhile.

In the case of Anthony Reyes, he went through USC with arm problems. According to House, he had very fast shoulder rotation which caused him to open up early and put more stress on the arm. His coach(es) told him to “slow down” and “don’t rush” but this only gave him more time for his shoulders to open up. House got him to get into foot strike quicker taking away the “excess” time he had to open up early. Reyes has supposedly been healthy since then.


#15

I feel we have to be careful when talking about “pushing off the rubber”. I believe there is a small push - sideways - off the rubber to initiate momentum towards the plate, especially when pitching from the stretch. But this is different from the “big push” that others talk about and which supposedly happens closer to the end of the stride. (That’s a whole other can of worms.) When pitching from the wind-up, other movements that come with the step back can help to initiate momentum as well. So, in the stretch, when you push the hips toward the plate, I think you also push back against the rubber/ground. But I think it happens subconsciously.

Now, I also believe there is an element of “fall” because you’re standing on a hill and your movement down the hill really does have a vertical component as well as a horizontal component.

One way to help get your hips going more explosively is to keep both knees bent equally. This will align your shoulders downhill and cause you to lean which helps get you going.


#16

[quote=“KreGg”]I’m a Giants fan, and every Giants fan is excited about this guy Lincecum. He is very explosive, and I’ve read some articles about him and they said he uses all of his body to throw that hard, hitting the high-90s.
He has a nasty curve/slider and a good fastball, can’t wait til he hits the MLB level!

He does remember me of Oswalt a little.[/quote]This kid is going to have arm problems if he isin’t careful. Take a look at how much full external rotation he gets. It’s below horizontal with the ground, which I personally have never seen before. If he stays healthy, he’ll be good, but don’t look for him to be in the big leagues for a couple years, I’ll give him 3-4 years in the minors before his debut.


#17

[quote=“Roger”]I feel we have to be careful when talking about “pushing off the rubber”. I believe there is a small push - sideways - off the rubber to initiate momentum towards the plate, especially when pitching from the stretch. But this is different from the “big push” that others talk about and which supposedly happens closer to the end of the stride. (That’s a whole other can of worms.) When pitching from the wind-up, other movements that come with the step back can help to initiate momentum as well. So, in the stretch, when you push the hips toward the plate, I think you also push back against the rubber/ground. But I think it happens subconsciously.

Now, I also believe there is an element of “fall” because you’re standing on a hill and your movement down the hill really does have a vertical component as well as a horizontal component.[/quote]

I agree.


#18

This degree of external rotation is very rare, and in many cases problematic.


#19

[quote=“Tanner Lorenz”]Take a look at how much full external rotation he gets. It’s below horizontal with the ground, which I personally have never seen before. [/quote]Wow! How can you see that at full speed? I’ve looked at these clips over and over but I just can’t see that. Am I missing a method to slow it down frame by frame?


#20

I have an MPEG version of the clip that you can go frame by frame through.