Mike Marshall "Forearm Flyout" v. Nyman Rotation

Mike Marshall wants pitchers to avoid what he calls “forearm flyout,” which is, from what I understand, when the forearm moves laterally across the body. From what I’ve read of Paul Nyman on The Hardball Times, it seems that he is promoting this, because this kind of rotation produces more velocity than “pushing the ball.”

It would seem to me that one either “pushes the ball” or does (dunno what verb to use) “forearm flyout.” From what I know, it would seem that there is no in between. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

Peel, I find it difficult to use this comparison as Nyman approaches traditional mechanics vs Marshalls drive line theories.
What I’ve seen and read from Nyman leads me to believe he’s a proponent of what I term “controlled momentum”, I asked him once why it was that he would site Lincecum so much as his example and he replied that it was due to his ability to deliver momentum transfer in a very visable and efficient way. My belief is that he firmly believes in the kinetic chain and any possible area in which more potential energy can be developed efficiently he’s for it. MM wants the ball delivered in a more linear fashion, with the apparent goal of minimizing injury potential.

[quote=“Orangepeel”]Mike Marshall wants pitchers to avoid what he calls “forearm flyout,” which is, from what I understand, when the forearm moves laterally across the body.[/quote]My understanding of “forearm flyout” is a bit different than this. I believe it’s how, due to the rotation of the shoulders, the forearm not only extends from bent to straight, but is also pulled outward due to centrifugal force. This pulls the forearm longitudinally out of the elbow socket.

So then, it would seem to me that you can make a motion similar to “pushing the ball,” where the arm would end up extending out in front, but still have a large external rotation of the forearm? Is that what these guys want? I doubt it, because I think Nyman has said things sort of against extending out in front.

Anyway, my main question is really if there is anything in between forearm flyout and pushing the ball.

“External rotation” describes rotation of the upper arm (i.e. the humerus) - not the forearm. Nyman wants maximum whipping effect and maximum centrifugal force like DM described. Marshall wants none of that.

Nyman definitely thinks one can be too linear. For example, he (or, at least, all of his followers that I’ve read) think that House mechanics are too linear.

In my opinion, no.

House has actually quantified this. He claims the elbow dislocates 1/4" and the shoulder 1/2".

Right, I think I meant to say upper arm. But that was something I wanted to know, if Marshall was against the whipping effect.

Edit - http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=1840665587145420187&hl=en&autoplay=1

So what Nyman wants is the first “flaw” that Marshall mentions.

[quote=“Orangepeel”]Mike Marshall wants pitchers to avoid what he calls “forearm flyout,” which is, from what I understand, when the forearm moves laterally across the body. From what I’ve read of Paul Nyman on The Hardball Times, it seems that he is promoting this, because this kind of rotation produces more velocity than “pushing the ball.”

It would seem to me that one either “pushes the ball” or does (dunno what verb to use) “forearm flyout.” From what I know, it would seem that there is no in between. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.[/quote]

The forearm moving laterally across the body (after pitch release) is a result of forearm flyout. It isn’t forearm flyout. Forearm flyout is the extension of the elbow in addition to the internal rotation of the humerus into release as DM stated.

Every traditional pitcher has some form of forearm flyout, but it can more easily be “seen” in pitchers with a low arm slot such as sidearmers. Some pitchers finish with high, slapping themselves on the glove arm bicep/deltoid area. Some finish lower near the hip.

Forearm flyout MAY be a problem if there is too much reverse rotation, not enough shoulder rotation before release, or throwing too much around the front shoulder. You basically want to control this flyout into release.

A few ways Marshall tries to eliminate forearm flyout is ridding of external rotation, raising the arm slot, no reverse/counter rotation, over-rotation of shoulders into release, etc.

Pushing the ball has to do with poor “connection” between the arm and the torso and can be caused by a number of things including exhibiting little external rotation, no scap load, premature scap un-load, or premature humeral adduction.

What is humeral adduction?

http://exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html#anchor106019

I don’t get it.

Sorry I tried to embed an image, but it didn’t allow it. Just click on the link above.

Ok, so that video supports what I thought you meant earlier, that by premature adduction… do you almost mean like starting to throw the ball too early?