BB, as I said…Coachxj is Paul Nyman
So many things to consider.
Where to start?
To me it’s impossible to effectively change multiple things at one time. What would you suggest the biggest bang for the buck would be in this case.
Stay closed with the hips longer?
- or -
It appears to me that the locking of the lower half (you can see JV’s front knee actually lock) causes the upper half to have more of a cantilever effect. Maybe more bang for the buck here, but more difficult a maneuver.
Or do you have another suggested approach for this pitcher?
Your analysis on this is fantastic. Thank you.
coachxj, but changing someone’s natural arm slot is dangerous to say the least. My feelings are that if you naturally throw over the top then don’t change just because you like the way someone else looks. If you throw sidearm naturally then don’t change because some little league coach tells you that you should.
Thank you Paul - Very enjoyable to watch. :shock:
[quote=“Baseballthinktank.com”][quote=“coachxj”]Understanding the throwing process is not for the faint of heart. It takes a lot of work and effort. This is just a “taste”.
Not to promote another site but we are all here searching for information. I strongly recommend taking time to read over Setpro. Paul Nyman is literally light years ahead of everyone on his views in developing and mastering the throwing process. He totally changed and confirmed the way I view pitching and coaching pitchers. Amazing stuff.
You obviously visit Setpro, would it be possible if you could PM me. You might know the answer you might not. I was looking for Paul’s email address and didn’t know if he was even involved with the site anymore. Thanks![/quote]
Haha, this is funny.
What dictates your arm slot in your opinion? How do you know what is natural?
I have found that there is a strong correlation between the arm path out of the glove and the arm angle. Arm angle in my opinion is the angle between the elbow and head. Guys that break away from the mid-line (Billy Wagner) will have a lower arm slot (horizontal out of the glove). Guys with a more vertical arm path tend to throw from a higher slot. You will then see guys like Ben Sheets who breaks more horizontal but has a very high slot. In my opinion with Ben Sheets built his arm around his breaking ball (taught get on top) and it ended up being a 10 million dollar pitch, wouldn’t change that. If you cropped a still photo of Sheets and tilted the pic his arm angle would be more similar to Wagners. I think determining arm slot centers around intent and the actual path the arm takes out of the glove or is the path out of the glove the reason for the arm angle?? I think everything is built around the arm action. Arm action dictates the overall look of the delivery. Examples:
Horizontal break out of the glove will have a greater arm angle (lower slot if shoulders were level) and will make the delivery have certain characteristics.:
- Horizontal break of the glove (symmetry of the two)
- Watch the glove side, it will take the same path as the front leg ( more of a sweeping action with both sides, glove and front leg.
Vertical break from the glove will create a lower arm angle (Higher arm slot if shoulders are level)
- Vertical break and glove more than likely beneath the elbow.
- Front leg will work in more of a straight line stride
Sheets is the opposite with a sweeping action of front leg and glove side because of his arm action out of the glove. But because of his intent to get on top of the breaking ball he has a high arm slot and tilt in his upper body. Was this arm slot natural or learned through intent??
I will post a video of Sheets once I complete.
[quote=“jdfromfla”]BB, as I said…Coachxj is Paul Nyman[/quote] :shock: :shock: :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Arm slot is entirely a function of trunk tilt and elbow flexion/extension at release. How you get to that tilt, however, can vary.
Am not advocating changing arm slot. Nothing in the analysis says/implies changing arm slot.
Yes, not only staying closed longer but landing less open. Many moons ago when the Internet pitching wars were at their peak there was much discussion regarding landing open or closed. Many of the hardest throwing pitchers landed somewhat closed. It’s all about leverage and quickness. Landing too far open predisposes the player to pushing the baseball. It also has the potential to slow down the upper body rotation.
[Quote ]It appears to me that the locking of the lower half (you can see JV’s front knee actually lock) causes the upper half to have more of a cantilever effect. Maybe more bang for the buck here, but more difficult a maneuver.[/Quote]
You really don’t want to promote “cantilever” of the upper body. What you want to promote is developing connection between lower body and upper body such that you are transferring the momentum of the lower body more effectively/efficiently to the upper body. Part of this is quickness or improving the quickness in the delivery. A slow delivery forces everything to happen at the very end i.e. cannot utilize momentum build up that occurs earlier in the delivery. Remember it’s all about rotation, rotation and more rotation and how fast/violently you can rotate the upper body.
Backwards chaining is in my opinion the most effective way to make changes to a delivery. Why? Because contrary to what most people want to do i.e. concentrate on the beginning of the delivery. At the beginning the delivery the body has no idea what needs do at the end of the delivery. That’s why backwards chaining is effective i.e. the most important part delivery is the end of the delivery i.e. the actual throwing of the baseball. For most players the early two thirds of the delivery i.e. everything up until just before foot plant is a little or no use because they don’t know how to effectively develop early momentum and then transfer it. Backward chaining if done correctly is very effective especially if you’re trying to make changes (retrain muscle memory).
Gotta agree with JD and with Paul’s excellent analysis. My take was also an inefficient use of the lower half and a “leaking” of the hips. The tilt and up-down head movement is what I would call a postural issue and that does contribute to hips and shoulders rotating together instead of in sequence.
I would suggest experimenting with two adjustments. First, increasing tempo down the hill could reduce or eliminate the open landing and leaking of the hips. He’s tall and lanky so he’ll have to stay within the limits of what his functional strength can stabilize. However, a more closed landing could also reduce hip and shoulder separation so I would probably also experiment with some counter-rotation by having the pitcher lift the knee towards the back shoulder instead of the front shoulder.
Thank you for those suggestions.
We’re going to do a bullpen today. I’m going to have him read these suggestions and have him try a couple of things. Paul suggests backward chaining. Never tried that before so maybe try to get him to close that landing foot a bit and see how that effects things.
If he’s successful in making these adjustments I’ll post video so you guys can see the results.
You guys must really love this stuff!
This isn’t related to the discussion, but i wanted to let Paul know i sent him a PM.
… is not necessarily gold.
The whole purpose of separation is to generate rotational velocity of the upper body. In essence we are talking about quickness. Hip rotation and its connection to the upper torso must be synchronized with arm action (hand break and position to achieve external rotation of the shoulder).
having too much separation can cause the arm action to pause because there is insufficient force to rotate the upper body quickly.
Why the possibility of institution force?
For every muscular movement there is an optimum muscle length which when contracted generates maximum force. Maximum momentum is the product of mass times velocity.
For example in doing a curl, maximum force occurs at approximately 50% of the muscles length. Lengths greater than 50% or less than 50% minimize the amount of force that can be applied to the curling bar.
Too much separation between upper and lower body may also prevent connecting the upper body at the lower body’s maximum rotational velocity.
As with any movement i.e. optimally/maximally throwing a baseball it simply a matter of trial and error to find what works best.
Seeing a succinct explanation is very nice.
6 years later
Jason Bahr - 2017 5th round pick by the Giants out of UCF
91 to 94 starting.
94 to 97 out of the pen.
Excelling in his 1st full pro season as a starter in A ball. Recently promoted to A+.
Something to consider. Some kids don’t finish growing until they are 21 or 22 years old. Makes it hard to get recruited out of high school.
Good to hear.
Biological age is the all important factor that parents need to understand when dealing with when and how to increase training opportunities.
What a great story and really an interesting thread to reread. Kyle getting more and more notoriety and bona fides over the last 6 years. Fl, an amazing journey…glad LTP played some small part in watching him grow and excel.
Congratulations, I hope he excels in his baseball career.