Max shoulder external rotation cited in this article about 1


#1

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1: Sports Med. 1996 Jun;21(6):421-37. Links
Biomechanics of overhand throwing with implications for injuries.Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Escamilla RF, Andrews JR.
American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, Alabama, USA.

Proper throwing mechanics may enable an athlete to achieve maximum performance with minimum chance of injury. While quantifiable differences do exist in proper mechanics for various sports, certain similarities are found in all overhand throws. One essential property is the utilisation of a kinetic chain to generate and transfer energy from the larger body parts to the smaller, more injury-prone upper extremity. This kinetic chain in throwing includes the following sequence of motions: stride, pelvis rotation, upper torso rotation, elbow extension, shoulder internal rotation and wrist flexion. As each joint rotates forward, the subsequent joint completes its rotation back into a cocked position, allowing the connecting segments and musculature to be stretched and eccentrically loaded. Most notable is the external rotation of the shoulder, which reaches a maximum value of approximately 180 degrees. This biomechanical measurement is a combination of true glenohumeral rotation, trunk hyperextension and scapulothoracic motion. Near the time of maximum shoulder external rotation (ERmax), shoulder and elbow musculature eccentrically contract to produce shoulder internal rotation torque and elbow varus torque. Both the shoulder and the elbow are susceptible to injury at this position. At ball release, significant energy and momentum have been transferred to the ball and throwing arm. After ball release, a kinetic chain is used to decelerate the rapidly moving arm with the entire body. Shoulder and elbow muscles produce large compressive forces to resist joint distraction. Both joints are susceptible to injury during arm deceleration.


#2

Chin,
It says about. There are people who reach more than 180 of external rotation although it is not common. I don’t want to get in an argument about it so I’d suggest going on the ASMI website and asking Dr. Fleisig. Just ask him what the largest amount of external rotation they’ve seen in a pitcher is.


#3

I agree.

180+ does happen, but it’s quite rare.

Maybe 5% of pitchers.


#4

I agree.

180+ does happen, but it’s quite rare.

Maybe 5% of pitchers.[/quote]

According to you there are pitchers that achieve over 200 degrees of external rotation, altghough the pics you put up did NOT show that. I suggest you look at the flash player presentation by asmi on shoulder biomechanics. It CLEARLY defines the norm, of this as well as offering up some other great information. Information that you SHOULD learn and understand before atttempting to be guruing, just my opinion! I tried to get you the link but couldnt do it. There is also one for the elbow too as well as another on kids. I realize you will no doubt rewrite these good doctors own words to fit your own m.o. but thats to be expected with you. The info is there you can choose to do what you please with it.


#5

Chin,
The ASMI presentation was based on 29 college and pro pitchers and among that group the external rotation ranged from 163 to 183 degrees according to the presentation. If one were to take a larger group you would probably get a bit larger excursion from the norm. However, based on this sample it is extremely unlikely, although not impossible that anyone is getting close to 200 degrees of external rotation.

It is a bit difficult to interpret what they meant by 173 ±10 degrees. One would expect that the actual distribution would not be perfectly symmetric about the midpoint so this may be a mean of 173 degrees with a standard deviation of 10 degrees. That would mean that out of a thousand professional pitchers you might get 3 or 4 that reach 200 degrees of external rotation.

My guess is that there are none, but 190 degrees is certainly within the realm of probability.

If that is a standard deviation then over 20% of professional pitchers probably reach more than 180 degrees of external rotation.


#6

[quote=“CADad”]Chin,
The ASMI presentation was based on 29 college and pro pitchers and among that group the external rotation ranged from 163 to 183 degrees according to the presentation. If one were to take a larger group you would probably get a bit larger excursion from the norm. However, based on this sample it is extremely unlikely, although not impossible that anyone is getting close to 200 degrees of external rotation.

It is a bit difficult to interpret what they meant by 173 ±10 degrees. One would expect that the actual distribution would not be perfectly symmetric about the midpoint so this may be a mean of 173 degrees with a standard deviation of 10 degrees. That would mean that out of a thousand professional pitchers you might get 3 or 4 that reach 200 degrees of external rotation.

My guess is that there are none, but 190 degrees is certainly within the realm of probability.

If that is a standard deviation then over 20% of professional pitchers probably reach more than 180 degrees of external rotation.[/quote]

I never speculated at all what is within the realms of possibility.I may have said that 180 is about normal probably a little high, it is impossible as you said to be precise but again the research is around 180, again maybe a little high, give or take but NOT anywhere near 200 when you are around the mean which is 180. 10 degress is huge in this. I did say that Chris was off base, which he was. For one, 180 is the norm again give or take but NOT 20. Going by what that paper said was the "neutral position, which it is. It would be doggone hard for 200 degrees of external rotation to be reached, almost impossible, Id have to see it to believe it. Yet, Chris pipes in and states that there are pitchers 200 or perhaps even 205 heck I dont remember AT LEAST 200 though WHERE I ask. He shows me some pics of guys at, you guessed it!!! all near 180 GIVE OR TAKE BUT NOWHERE near 200 degrees, ole chris is really “windin em up!!!” Where would that put the forearm/hand in relationship to the distal end of the humerus which is a critical part of the whole angle? Not to mention if there is relevence to the gaining of external rotation at the cost of internal of internal rotation. If there is relevence to the research that indicates once a certain ratio between the two has been reached in difference of degrees I pity the guy that has 200 degrees of external rotation he probabaly gonna be hurtin real bad in one form or another.

Chris pulls this smacking a tall kid on the head gig out and to be honest thats just STUPID. WHY? What if the guy whacking the tall kid is SHORT? Than bring a guy in thats a foot taller than the tall kid!! Thats pure genius!! Chris otta be a “polster instead of a poster” he sure as heck could get the answers he wants using those guidelines they are wide open! basic but accurate L = right handed arm ALREADY at 90 degrees from neutral, which it is, where would this put the forearm/hand at another 110 degrees of external rotation versus 90? “windem up” thats all Im sayin!!! Beyond that, YOU KNOW what Im sayin Cadad!!! Ha!


#7

Is this saying that horizontal abduction is far greater than whether you throw with a short arm, slinger type action or long arm?

It seems to read that the arm action isn’t as great as ensuring you have this horizontal abduction (whatever that term means)


#8

I checked w/ ASMI and it was a standard deviation. The person from ASMI who responded believed that they had a few pitchers around 200 degrees of external rotation.