Mark Prior VS Luke Hochevar

Regular speed version

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wow they are almost just like each other

Say goodbye to Luke’s career. :lol: just kidding. but they are very similar so it could be interesting to see how Hochaver’s Health turns out. Supposibly Prior had the perfect mechs but perfect mechs shouldnt hurt you as much as it has him?

Perfect mechanics means you throw around 100 mph and you’re injury proof. Prior has neither. Nolan Ryan probably had the closest thing to perfect mechanics. Guys like Brandon Morrow, Felix Hernandez, and Joba Chamberlain look pretty smooth so far…

Here we go again. :roll: Somebody please show me where it says Prior’s injuries were caused by his mechanics.

Prior’s elbow is more parallel to the ground when he pulls it back and more pronounced towards first base than Shochevar.

More strain on his shoulder?

He had at least 3 maybe 4 surgeries to remove bone chips…hardly injury proof

Well how about the mechanics of running your shoulder into a 210 lb 2nd baseman? Or the mechanics of what happens to nearly pure calcium bone when hit by a batted line drive (On the elbow)…Lets not let real history get in the way of someones pocket theory here :lol: :no: :disbelief: :greengrin:

xv…daggone it, you are really the best video guy…I wish I could give you a gold star!!! :bowdown:

This piece of history seems to escape those who foolishly claim his injuries are from his arm action. I mean the collision was so great that even Giles himself was hurt.

Getting off topic, but I came across this news piece yesterday on Prior’s recent surgery:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080605&content_id=2850165&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnered=rss_mlb

Gee, I wonder what that “traumatic event” could have been?

Thanks JD.

Interesting. I have it from someone inside the NPA that Dr. Andrews “went in” to address some issue at some point (don’t recall these details) and discovered that one of Prior’s previous injuries had been mis-diagnosed. But this was a previous episode - not the one referenced in that article.

[quote=“jdfromfla”][quote]

He had at least 3 maybe 4 surgeries to remove bone chips…hardly injury proof
[/quote]

yea I guess, and didn’t he have back problems or something? but you have to have pretty good mechanics to throw 95+ over 25 year period. and I think there’s a side view of clip of prior in this forum and he kind of brings his hand behind his head before he throws and his elbow is a little high when he “scap loads”, that’s not “perfect arm action”. guys who have similar arm action with bad injuries are zumaya and liriano.

Really? Maby it’s just my attention to detial but I think I see some differences in their mechanics. Well first Prior seperates his hands faster than Luke even though this could be a small frame that is off. Also their arm actions seem a bit differnet and Luke seems more out leaning forward after the pitch. But Prior had a good ptich, swing and miss and it looks like Luke’s pitch got let go a bit and was outside and high.

Oh you bet The Express had it all goin on. A Great, A HOF’r, I have always wondered the if’s of the Express…Like If he’d actually played for good teams and all that good stuff, his record wasn’t all that wonderful but whattya gonna do, he was on really bad teams…a couple of so so teams and the Mets which was just a miracle team…most don’t think about that…it’s all of those no hitters, all of those k’s, his longevity…still packin serious heat all the way until late 40’s retirement. On the Mechs forum we’re also discussing him in the context of Billy Wagner. I like to point out that conditioning before him was basically doing your roadwork and throwing long toss, Ryans workout was as legendary as it gets…If you can find a copy of the MLB DVD, “Unhittable”, it has some outstanding stuff on it about Ryan and I think 6 other no hitters, very much worth the small coin to buy it. He had aches and pains…went under the knife but he got over it. I always thought he developed his speed out of the momentum generated by his high knee lift and his great timing…and unreal core strength…all pitchers can at least work on the core and work to perfect timing…

While they look somewhat similar from behind, here is the biggest difference between Prior and Hochevar. Notice how acute the angle is in Prior’s throwing arm. This increases the load on the shoulder as it begins to externally rotate. Hochevar’s arm is more open and reduces the load on the shoulder compared to the load on Prior’s shoulder. I will say, though, that I’m not totally buying mechanical issues as the root of Prior’s problems. The freak injuries have to play some part of the equation.


On Nolan Ryan, for my money he was the most dominant pitcher of all time. The one stat that stands out to me is 7 no-hitters plus 12 1-hitters! Also he had 14 seasons where he threw 200+ innings(i believe 3 of which were 300+) in an era before pitch counts. That, my friends, is a workhorse. To go through a career like that and throwing that hard, only removing a few bone chips in his elbow and having a little back pain is more than remarkable. Also, if someone were to make an argument against Ryan having near perfect mechanics, what would the arguments be?! I can’t really find one.

[quote=“throwinched”]While they look somewhat similar from behind, here is the biggest difference between Prior and Hochevar. Notice how acute the angle is in Prior’s throwing arm. This increases the load on the shoulder as it begins to externally rotate. Hochevar’s arm is more open and reduces the load on the shoulder compared to the load on Prior’s shoulder. I will say, though, that I’m not totally buying mechanical issues as the root of Prior’s problems. The freak injuries have to play some part of the equation.


On Nolan Ryan, for my money he was the most dominant pitcher of all time. The one stat that stands out to me is 7 no-hitters plus 12 1-hitters! Also he had 14 seasons where he threw 200+ innings(i believe 3 of which were 300+) in an era before pitch counts. That, my friends, is a workhorse. To go through a career like that and throwing that hard, only removing a few bone chips in his elbow and having a little back pain is more than remarkable. Also, if someone were to make an argument against Ryan having near perfect mechanics, what would the arguments be?! I can’t really find one.[/quote]

thats kind of what I was thinking. bone chips sound like a product of the wear and tear of the season and his life, not really a mechanical issue. that Prior picture is what I was talking about, thanks for putting it up.

I appreciate the pictures nice color…you may not (Both of you) realize that prior (Pun intended) to his collision with Giles and subsequent liner off his elbow, Mark Prior had no, none, notta injury, he was the most dominant pitcher in D-1 baseball…he was untouchable, he then became the most dominant pitcher in MLB…it’s hookie…blarney…non-factual to attribute his injury to anything but those accidents…no evidence supports it…other than a desire to discredit Tom House by wish-they-were guru’s.
And I think that Nolan Ryans mechs were perfect for him…likely would hurt Greg Maddux.

[quote=“jdfromfla”]I appreciate the pictures nice color…you may not (Both of you) realize that prior (Pun intended) to his collision with Giles and subsequent liner off his elbow, Mark Prior had no, none, notta injury, he was the most dominant pitcher in D-1 baseball…he was untouchable, he then became the most dominant pitcher in MLB…it’s hookie…blarney…non-factual to attribute his injury to anything but those accidents…no evidence supports it…other than a desire to discredit Tom House by wish-they-were guru’s.
And I think that Nolan Ryans mechs were perfect for him…likely would hurt Greg Maddux.[/quote]
he had an elbow strain in 2005 at the age of 24 which is a reasonable time to start exposing bad mechanics and having injuries. It was only the preseason of his 3rd major league season, 4th professional season, so he had to deal with more stress. He strained his shoulder in 2006 which was 4 years after his collision. He had shoulder tendinitis, needed shoulder surgery the next year and after “exploratory surgery” they found that he had structural damage that the Cubs never diagnosed properly according to wikipedia. That doesnt sound like the result of a collision and a bone fracture. The collision probably gave him the rest he needed to finish out the 2003 season unharmed. And I believe that if people one day figure out Nolan Ryan’s mechanics, they would be perfect for anyone.

This is the first injury he had…I saw it, he was never the same after it…velo and accuracy dropped noticablely and never returned. Say what you will, I observed as much of his pitching as was available over the course of his career…he NEVER had a problem before the collision. Every injury you site is post this event…every one of them. I asked for supportable evidence, where is it? The truth is you have none because he wasn’t injured at all before he ran into Giles…I know you want it to be, wish it to be…I guess, so you can say that this man who was the most feared strike out pitcher in MLB had “defective” mechanics…I just don’t get it, what is it that makes people want to impugn him other than to somehow make themselves look like they know better than people who receive major pay action for their abilities to coach and understand pitching at the highest levels. By insinuation that is what you do…you say you know better than the scouts, D-1 coaches at USC and the entire Cubs organization…as well as Tom House and company…Why aren’t you rich enough to blow off this web site and vacation in the Caymans …like forever? You should be churning out Nolan Ryan clones by the boatload. :wink:

What is to “figure out” about the Express? It isn’t like he hasn’t been looked at…from every angle…your statement to me is (I say this with respect…we disagree but I think nothing bad about you) non-sensical…he has a super strong core and a high leg kick, great arm action and a very strong back, all put together with superior timing and a burning hot competitive desire…whats to figure out…now if you attempt that with a body that isn’t configured for that, you are on your way to Alabama…to Dr. Andrews office. Please oh please site for me one…just one major leaguer who is where he is directly due to copying another pitcher.

This is the first injury he had…I saw it, he was never the same after it…velo and accuracy dropped noticablely and never returned. Say what you will, I observed as much of his pitching as was available over the course of his career…he NEVER had a problem before the collision. Every injury you site is post this event…every one of them. I asked for supportable evidence, where is it? The truth is you have none because he wasn’t injured at all before he ran into Giles…I know you want it to be, wish it to be…I guess, so you can say that this man who was the most feared strike out pitcher in MLB had “defective” mechanics…I just don’t get it, what is it that makes people want to impugn him other than to somehow make themselves look like they know better than people who receive major pay action for their abilities to coach and understand pitching at the highest levels. By insinuation that is what you do…you say you know better than the scouts, D-1 coaches at USC and the entire Cubs organization…as well as Tom House and company…Why aren’t you rich enough to blow off this web site and vacation in the Caymans …like forever? You should be churning out Nolan Ryan clones by the boatload. :wink:

What is to “figure out” about the Express? It isn’t like he hasn’t been looked at…from every angle…your statement to me is (I say this with respect…we disagree but I think nothing bad about you) non-sensical…he has a super strong core and a high leg kick, great arm action and a very strong back, all put together with superior timing and a burning hot competitive desire…whats to figure out…now if you attempt that with a body that isn’t configured for that, you are on your way to Alabama…to Dr. Andrews office. Please oh please site for me one…just one major leaguer who is where he is directly due to copying another pitcher.[/quote]

I believe you are a person very strong in his beliefs. however, I believe there is a lot to be figured out still. scientists haven’t completed the job or else I’d agree with you in saying that there would be Nolan Ryans born every second. how does this “great arm action” occur. You talk about a super strong core, but I witnessed Michael Main, draft pick by Texas, hurl a 100 mph fastball, and I wouldn’t call him the most buff and explosive guy in the neighborhood. Bobby Jenks is a tub of lard and he threw 103 mph in the 2005 world series. How come guys like Mariano Rivera, Roy Oswalt, Joba Chamberlain, Roger Clemens, with already developed bodies, gained so much velocity over the course of their early careers or college careers. These are all different body types, producing similar fastballs. I’m sure you need a somewhat high level of core strength, but not the typical “10 sets of 100 puships, 5 sets of 80 crunches, etc”.

I also find it strange that you assume I’m some 40 yr old has-been, grouchy cause I didn’t make it and I’m trying to impose my will on you people in a forum doing nothing with my grumpy self. I can assure you that’s far from being the case.At the same time, I don’t know if you’ve ever been around the block yourself, and been through the scouting routines. Scouts have been proved wrong through SABRmetrics, no reason why they can’t be proved wrong in mechanics. Maybe one day you will see clones of Nolan Ryan walking around everywhere.

Calling Mark Prior the most feared strikeout pitcher might be a bit of a stretch, but thats besides the point. I’m pretty sure his velocity was in the 94-96 range, occasionally topping at 98, pre and post Marcus Giles collision. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t ever recall him being an electric 100 mph hurler. And how can you prove that those injures were caused by the collision and that his velocity dropped. After these recent injuries I understand his velocity has dropped.

You make my point, each person you mentioned has a different way in which they produced said smokin heat. Nolan produced it his way, Roy another…Mr Goo Jenks yet another, as I stated…perhaps on the Billy Wagner thread …oops I think he produced it yet another way. A pitcher produces how his body produces. The way in which I’ve personally seen (Now I’m nobody in particular…I’m someones dad…have I been around the block…compared to who? I don’t know? I’m an engineer by trade) professionals in the business of baseball…i.e. either someone paid by a major league club to coach pitchers and or skipper, or paid by a division 1 university or a former major leaguer (Or two or three) who has chosen to teach, develop pitchers, is not to copy anyone, they develop what is presented to them, they alter things which they consider injurious and they maximize efficiencies, they all as a group realize that they still have things to learn and have this interesting tendancy to both be humble and confident that what they teach is proper and if followed will get their pupil as far as their desire and body type will take them…The first thing they usually teach is that not everyone will be able to reach the upper reaches and very few will be able to ascend to the pinnacle of that. In many years I’ve never seen one of them treat a student as anything but an individual who presents individual strong points and individual challenges, they concentrate on those…I have asked each about the different theories and guru’s…as a group and I mean this sincerely, they have no idea who these others are…with the exception of House…who was one of them at some point and has been credited by the likes of Ryan…and others.
Much depends on other things beyond mechanics…My pet statement is that baseball is desire. I think it is not overly simplistic…but actually truely complex…So many other things can intrude, to over come is no way related to just their mechanical abilities at all (A guy with “perfect mechanics” could very possibly be out of it before the end of his high school career).

I don’t know where you got such an idea…I stated that though we disagree I respect you and your opinions…I don’t know how old you are and don’t care…My philosophy (And you simply need to look under my profile and read my postings to plainly see them) consider all input as realative and worthy of both my respect and the courtesy to listen, if I disagree I do it respectfully and hopefully with a spirit that will bring you to discussion and discourse…perhaps we will part in disagreement perhaps you can change my mind…who knows I may make a point that will intrigue you. I don’t assume anything except that you love pitching and enjoy talking about it.

It wasn’t just I who thought and saw that about Prior. But it’s ok with me that you disagree, he and Kerry Wood struck fear in the majors for a couple of years there and were tremendously successful until hurt and throwing 100 mph doesn’t mean squat as far as great strike out pitchers…Maddux has a few over 3000 and Trevor Hoffman I think strikes out a few here and there with less than 90 mph heat…Bruce Sutter used to k a few…many names come to mind. But hey…the beauty of our art is that these things can be and are argued and will be way after the both of us are way dead and buried.
As to the drop in velocity …I witnessed it…personally with my own eyes…his accuacy was also never the same…I saw this. I’m sure if you’d like I could list others that also agree…I can tell you about Maddux from every year since he was a rookie also…I could tell you about Fergie Jenkins and bob Gibson…I personally witnessed these things it isn’t my guess. When you see him drop 3-5 mph and he isn’t hitting his spots…same camera angle just the glove is in one spot the pitch in another it isn’t anything but what it is.

Ill drop the personal things because I thought you were saying I think I know more than the scouts and GMs do. Then I realized in a way I do, so haha, it’s all laughs.

[quote=“jdfromfla”][quote]
You make my point, each person you mentioned has a different way in which they produced said smokin heat. [/quote]
I meant that each pitcher, no matter the body type, throws with the same absolute mechanics (mechanics that are evident in all power pitchers). What you are seeing is different styles, or unnecessary movements to help time these absolute mechanics, or possibly these “style” movements could be detrimental, in Prior’s case.

I also disagree here. Because I believe there are certain absolutes, every able bodied male should be able to obtain a major league heater. Perseverance also plays a role. If you accept the the coaches way of thinking that only a lucky select few can throw hard, then you will never throw hard. If you take a risk and go against the grain, you might find something a lot different…

If you mean out of it like he doesn’t care anymore, that is a factor. If you mean he’s injury prone, then he doesn’t have perfect mechanics. Baseball is very much a desire, I agree. However, it may be more simple than you think.

Something you said about Nolan Ryan’s high leg kick. It was more of a timing thing to him than a driving force in his velocity. I think if Ryan understood the mechanics more, this leg kick would be unnecessary. Zumaya, with a similar body type, throws 100 mph with ease in a slide step from the stretch. There actually used to be a clip of this when the video clips section was still up.

I understand 100 mph doesn’t equate to strikeouts and effectiveness, I’m just saying, to me at least, it would mean the pitcher has maximized the efficiency of his mechanics. Your right that it is what it is, but Prior was still very effective, as he went on to post a 10-1 record after the injury in 2003. I don’t think his velocity could’ve dropped 3-5 mph and still pitched effectively instantly afterwards. He would have to change his style of pitching like a flamethrower to finesse and that could take years. If you could supply visual radar gun readings in immediate games before and after the injury, I would be less skeptical (you would have to give me a large sample from each game, not just picking a random one that says 92 when he was cruising at 96 the whole time or vice versa). What I’m asking for is ridiculous, so if you showed me a video clip of two very different fastballs thrown by Prior, I’ll try to find the differences between his 90 mph version and his 96 mph version. The location I can understand and the velocity drop in years later from injury and natural mechanical mistakes is understandable. It could also be from fear of injury, so his intent to throw hard is decreased.

The bottom line is nothing I say will stick to you if you don’t believe my initial thinking. Anyone can throw 100 mph. And the same could be said for you to me.