Mark Prior rare injury reported

Interesting.

http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080605&content_id=2850165&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

[quote=“Papibon”]Interesting.

http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080605&content_id=2850165&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

[/quote]

While some of you will say that this proves that the root cause of Prior’s injury is the Giles collision, I’m not so sure. Below is an e-mail that I received from an orthopedic surgeon that advances a different theory about how the same injury can result from pitching.

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the Inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.
In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i.e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum.
It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the “normal” delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology.
Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.
Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren’t.

An alleged email from an unnamed orthopedic surgeon is not very convincing.

The surgeons however who actually performed the surgery are credible.

Nevertheless, the recent findings do not necessarily prove a root cause but it does allow for it.

I don’t give out his name because I don’t want fanatics to hassle him.

If you think I’m lying about the e-mail, then you’re unlikely to believe him, so what’s the point.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the Inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.
In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) [b]the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. … yada yada yada[/quote]I addressed this back when you first posted it here but you didn’t respond. I asked you to get him to contact me about it but I never heard a thing. The problem I see in this guy’s admitted “theory” is that it completely ignores what I’ve been saying for years to you about this high elbow thing. It’s the FACT that the elbow does not stay up there. Does he really understand this? Is he stating that just the act of getting the elbow high for that brief amount of time is damaging? Let’s hear him respond to this. Get him to register anonymously and we’ll have a discussion or he can use a hotmail account and ensure that I don’t “hassle” him with this.

Also, this flies in the face of the statement you made in this very thread to the effect that you now believe that the height of the elbow is irrelevant.

So, either get him to register and post, or pm me, or give him my email address at: dm-59@hotmail.com and we’ll do this with video as our base of information, not some still image of a point in time with gross extrapolations after that.

The point isn’t whether I believe you or not;it’s a matter of not being able to verify a source that you are using as an alternative “theory.” Any objective person would conclude that the surgeons, presumably sports injury specialists, who did the surgery would have a weightier opinion than an unnamed person in an email. How could he possibly conclude otherwise?

These surgeons observe that the injury is rare and typically associated with trauma. Given the discussion around Mark Prior on this website this is significant information.

y is everybody picking on chris. for everything he says there are like 5 ppl who attack him.

loco123:

y is everybody picking on chris. for everything he says there are like 5 ppl who attack him.

Papibon:

Why are assuming that people are “attacking” Chris? Did you bother to read article in the link presented in this thread?

Also if picking on Chris means challenging him when he makes unfounded absolute statements and gets children to parrot them , then that is an obscene definintion of picking on someone.

Chris you say this statement is an alternative theory to what SD doctors found out…but this was on your site many many moons before the doctors discovered the rare “fall related” injury noted in the article. The doctor seems to support your idea of inpingement but makes no mention whatever of this sort of detachment.

I guess the crux of my and Pabilbons statements and comments are that the over-whelming evidence points in the direction we feel has happened and your supposition is founded only on your speculation, you give no other evidence. I don’t doubt the Dr. but he doesn’t do anything but really indicate that arm/shoulder injury can in fact happen and he’s intrigued by your theory.
Again if this wasn’t being picked up and run with by kids I’d let you maintain whatever ruminations you feel apply…but when the indoctrination of kids to a highly suspect theory is being undertaken, I will object everytime it is brought out. I’m sorry if you think I’m somehow picking on you, I believe I’ve shown you respect and given you plenty of room to lay out exactly what your arguement is…unfortunately when we get down to brass tacs you break into this tap dance;

He wasn’t even talking about the rare “fall type” injury at all…but you attempt to divert the conversation. It does bolster the belief that Prior was injured in the collision…certainly doesn’t detract from it…just more evidence…hard fact evidences that we are presenting you…It won’t hurt to re-adjust how you view this, I don’t think it will ruin anyones beliefs that you are an astute observer of mechanics…just a line of theory that has been investigated and found lacking…either to be discarded or put on the shelf until more evidence to help your side comes into play.

So, you’re going to sit here and tell me that his mechanics were so bad that it actually caused his shoulder to tear away from the humerus? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? When the two orthopedic surgeons who found the tear said that they had “never heard of another baseball player having it before,” you are going to go against it?

Here’s a definition from a website I found: “A dislocation may cause the ligaments that join the humerus to the glenoid to tear away from their base on the humerus. This is known as a HAGL lesion, or Humeral Avulsion of the Glenohumeral Ligaments. It may be accompanied by a SLAP Lesion, Labral Tear, or a tear of the rotator cuff tendons.”

Does anybody see how ridiculous that sounds or is it just me?

[quote=“loco123”]y is everybody picking on chris. for everything he says there are like 5 ppl who attack him.[/quote]Nobody’s attacking Chris. It’s the content of what he’s saying that people are attacking. I actually respect Chris for his dogged determination and ability to remain calm in the face of some pretty strong opposition. I just don’t agree with his theories.

Now, I think he does quite a job with hitting.

ooo, im sorry

my bad

[quote]ooo, im sorry

i just felt kinda bad for him

but i guess its all just a fun discussion

my bad[/quote]

Take heart…Chris is a big boy.
Man just look back in the history of this very forum…you’d be in the fetal position if this seems rough to ya…Ha…Chris knows he doesn’t get treated better anywhere else except his site…this ain’t even love taps when he and Nyman really have a go…maybe its to intense…sorry…maybe you should take up hopscotch so your sensitivities aren’t offended.
[size=9](Ooops sorry if that last statement offended…I was just sharing a sarcastic moment like you did… :wink: )[/size]

nah, i just said that cuz of i seen all of his posts
and it is pretty fun to watch to guys argue

…hopscotch… :?

If it weren’t for disagreement mechanics would never change. No one changes stuff until someone tries to argue an old style of pitching isn’t right.