Long Toss question

General Pitching Topics
#1

hey guys whats up.

I was reading on a different baseball forum about this catcher asking a coach a long toss question. The coaches’ kid threw 85mph average and he was only 15 years old(WOW). Anyways the coach said they were on a long toss schedule, which is vital to any pitcher.

The coach said that whenever his son did long toss the farthest he ever threw was 120ft. Would this work for me as well. Because my back yard is 120ft exactly and i alwasy have to drive 10 minutes every day to our local diamond to long toss at 300ft and beyond.

The coach said his son never ever threw beyond 120ft. The reason for this was that even for an outfielder you should be hitting your cut off man at about 100ft or so. So why practice long tossing beyond 120ft if you never have to use it. That is what the coach said.

Is this how all long toss program goes. Like all you do is go to 120ft.
I am very confused now about long toss. Because every day me and my brother always threw to about 300ft. They weren’t on rainbows either. They were pretty good throws. Anyways what should i do:

Long toss at 120ft. Or long toss at 300ft. If i did long toss at 120ft that would make things so more confient because i do it every day in my backyard without any driving.

#2

don’t be shy to answer guys.

What do you guys really thing?

Long toss at 120ft or go beyond that.

i was thinking:

60ft-6 throws
90ft-8 throws
120ft-10 throws
90ft-8 throws
60ft-6 throws

Would this be okay.

#3

Don’t put restrictions on your arm. Go about long toss on a day to day basis. Only you know what’s in your arm on a given day.

Putting restraints on your arm in terms of number of throws or distance is foolish and can only inhibit your growth IMO.

#4

Sorry, but my educated opinion is that long toss is a drill for outfielders, not pitchers.

I don’t mind a little long tossing to get loose and warming up - in fact, the team I coach lines up on the right field line (after a dynamic warm-up) and throws 30 feet (8-10 throws), 60 feet (8-10 throws), 90 feet (5-6 throws), 120 feet (5-6 throws), 90 feet (2-3 throws), 60 feet (2-3 throws), 45 feet (rapid fire). During practice, the outfielders get plenty of additional throws throwing to bases.

Our pitchers spend more time throwing from a mound, working on mechanical improvements and target practice. The above long toss warm-up is done twice a week on average.

I read somewhere that Tommy John did no long toss after his surgery - he only pitched from a mound, 6 days a week to rehabilitate his arm. He said long tossing is too different mechanically from pitching - different release points, crow hopping, stride lengths, etc. Why condition the body to do a completely different action/movement?

#5

Because throwing the ball isn’t all you do from the mound. You are a player and as such have to field and throw and run and hustle.
I’m with you though Doc…I don’t use it as a “prep” for my pitchers, I’ve always done it because I love to throw and long distances is just a joy. If you follow Jaegers program, you actually do throw as a pitcher does in the draw down phase. I do think it hones in a throwing way over-all athleticism, good work, it builds endurance also. As you said though, I use it as part of the throwing regieme post dyno-warm-up.
Unfortunately the internet tends to portray stuff like this as the ends of the spectrum…either you are some kind of borg who does it to the exclusion of everything else or you think its a huge waste of time. My take on it is that it absolutely does have a place and used as a tool in that place it is a “reasonable” tool.
I also believe that the body should dictate where you go with it as to reps and distance.

#6

I remain firm in my stance that long toss should be used for all players. The only way to “push the envelope” and see your potential is to throw with 100% intent, and very few players can accurately gauge what 100 percent is without feedback i.e distance in long toss.

structuredoc,
I’m curious why you choose 120 as the limit?

#7

7steps,

I coach a 13u team and the majority of players have not hit their growth spurt yet, so they don’t have the arm strength to throw on a line much further than 120 ft. and do it accurately! As soon as they can master 120 ft., I’d consider moving it back some – but again, it’s just a warm-up. The outfielders work on throwing to second, third, and home from the outfield so they will eventually work on throwing further distances.

#8

I agree with you, all that happens to younger kids that throw long is that they try to lobster the ball more, I don’t think there is any need of this. Stay where you can actually throw on a line.

#9

My son has experienced both sides of the issue. In high school he routinely threw long toss from foul pole to foul pole or from goal line to goal line on the football field. In college he never throws much more than 120 ft. at the direction of a pitching coach. The pitching coach wants all throws to be on a line with very little change in altitude. My son feels that the 120 ft long toss is preferable and that his high school routine tended to wear him out rather than build his strength. He also recommends a step behind for all throws in order to gain momentum when long tossing. For what its worth. You can decide what works best but I would guard against getting into throwing contests with other players to see who has the strongest arm.

#10

i wouldnt limit urself to any distance, as long as u warm up properly and gradually move back while throwing i dont see why u shouldnt continue moving back as far as your arm feels comfortable

#11

i agree with dino. That a 120ft distance long toss is perfect. You are throwing the ball as hard as you can ON A LINE.

When you start going back to farther distances such as 300,310,320…
Than you began throwing the ball higher in the air with more of an arc, which thus doesn’t make you arm stronger but screw up your mechanics quite nicely i think.

Whenever i threw from 120ft MAX my arm never hurt, when i went to 310 my arm felt like it was going to fall off. Also the trajectory on the ball is higher in the air at farther distances thus you arm has to go lower to throw the ball higher. Thus screwing up your mechanics
Isn’t this right?

#12

You use your body differently to throw a ball 120 feet and throw it 300+ feet. Take two throwers that for a month have trained in these two methods respectively and at the end of the month you will find that the second thrower has a healthier, more dynamic, more athletic, and more intuitive arm.

The body organizes itself based on its goals. If my goal is to throw 90 mph you will find the mechanics much more resemble a 300 throw than a 120 throw.

#13

This is Jeagers Long Toss Program;

I don’t think China McCarney’s mechs were all together bad…certainly not “screwed up”…Remember people…there is more than one way to skin a mule…Jeager has a whole passel of people who completely believe in his program. Can’t argue 97mph…at least I don’t think anyone on this site is chunkin 97 mph gas.
McCarney at the time was a college freshman…by the way he was a Nyman follower (Paul told me this himself). I think the kid ended up with personal issues and ultimately I don’t know the final word but he was in Ca’s JUCO system last I heard.

#14

just commenting on the alan jaeger video right above this post.

I have watched this video before it was posted on this site. I watched it maybe 5 months ago and i have tried alan jaegers method this season, i really have.

Anyways the rubber tubing and arm circles just creates blood flow. Just like a simple jog and dynamic stretching is. I don’t think that by listening to your arm that is the way to go.
EXAMPLE:

When i pitch on the mound i have really good pitching endurance. I can easily go 120-130 pitches on some occasions. But yet i do not do this. I always stop at 100 pitches. So ya just because your arm feels good doesn’t mean you should throw until you arm is in pain or sore. Thats not what you do.

Also another good example of this program is JOEL ZUYMA

Oh yes joel zuyma was on alan jaegers program too. i am pretty sure, because i read it a few months ago. Anyways joel zuyma blew out his arm what 2 times. And i think like 3 weeks ago he blew his elbow out again. So ya just because your throwing hard doesn’t necessarily mean you are doing it with the right mechaincs.

These are just some of the facts i got.

#15

You obviously don’t make those types of throws in a game but who says that all training has to be exactly what you do in a game? If that was the case then the best thing to do would be to just go and and play the game and that would make you better. The point is to implement drills into your training that will carry over and help in games. This means going outside the box and doing things we don’t generally do on the field.

Long toss done correctly (as evidenced in the Jaeger video) involves a “pulldown” phase that solidifies release point and turns a huge, arching 300 ft throw into an explosive 60 ft bullet.

[quote]like this coach said: His son is 15 throws 85mph and all he does is throw from 120ft. Of course he warms up then makes some throws at 60ft then 90ft.
[/quote]

I would venture to say he could add a few mph if he really found out what was in his arm. Ask him if he has ever done long toss past 120 ft.

#16

Jeager isn’t the only person who recommends tubing there bbkid…Do you really want to go there…shall we start with a listing of every major university of college that uses them?
As to Joel Zumaya, he injured himself playing Rock Band and then while moving heavy furnature for someone (I guess he didn’t want to part with his millions to pay some day laborer to help out). Now he has suffered an injury to his arm, but considering his past history of numbskull behavior I’d suspect how he prepares more than his throwing long toss…or pointing to the program and saying “ahah”! No way is that an indicator that the program is “bad”. I mean please…
You appear to be somewhat light on those “facts” there bbkid.

#17

My son participated in a long toss program similar to Jeager’s featured above. I don’t know whether to credit the program for increased velocity or just his change in maturity or growth. I know that even at age 19 he is continuing to mature and grow. I guess my biggest roadblock is that as an investigator, I had a high threshold for proof of fact versus simple coincidence. For instance, you give me a kid with an arm like China and I could make you believe eating ice cream increased velocity.

I am sure Jeager’s Program is probably highly researched and holds value. Many high schools don’t have a throwing philosophy so it leaves kids on their own to chose a path. The hardest thrower I saw in High School followed a rigorous long toss program. Here again, I don’t know which came first, the strong arm or the program. His father taught my son the long toss program. The kid was a top JUCO prospect about ready to be drafted but was injured twice and now is recovering from tommy john surgery performed by James Andrews. Really, I’d look toward southern programs (Fla, Texas, California) for a cutting edge understanding of throwing development but if you live in the north you have to make adjustments due to limitations.

I don’t know what the reason was for not exceeding much more than 120 ft as a freshman but I’d say it was that pitching coaches philosophy. Not that long toss is wrong, it’s something you have to determine if it’s for you or not based on your needs and status as a pitcher.

#18

Regarding tubing, DO IT…or very light dumbells…Rotator Cuff Exercises are absolutely necessary for arm health. It is the only thing that can strengthen the tendons and ligaments in your shoulder. Heavier weights will just put more strain on those tendons. I would wholeheartedly support kicking your butt if I were your father and you did not do RTC’S.

#19

If long toss is so effective, and I don’t say its not I just don’t know, why
has there not been a study to prove it? Such a study using statisical
analysis to prove the point would be easy to undertake. One would think the Jaeger group would do it to prove their sytem works best. This would put the subject to rest once and for all. Instead, all we have is opinion. If anyone knows of a well done study on this matter will they post it.

#20

i am not disagreeing with rubber tubing or light dumbells. I do those every single day.

I am just talking about long toss. I am just going by what this coach said on this different forum. About his son 15 years old throwing 85mph.

Anyways this could be from a lot of different reasons. But the fact that he only does long toss to 120ft brings up a valuable question.

Should you go beyond 120ft when throwing. I would really like to hear Steven’s opinion on this as well.

Also long toss has not been proven in any study’s yet either as well. So i am very spectical. I did long toss for the first 2 months during the start of our season. I did not gain any Mph and my arm did hurt. The only time my arm never hurt was when i went on a 1month weight lifting program just focusing on my legs. I then began gaining mph and my arm never hurt.

So ya thats why i want to know about long toss. Don’t want to be doing it if you arm hurts and you get no gains.