Key to Mlb

The key to MLB baseball and the big 90 is to stay side ways. Also you have to stay back and lead with your hip ALL THE WAY TILL YOU LAND. If you dont you will open up early and lose 5-8 mph. So just put that hip at the target while staying behind your bellybutton with your upper body. Then as soon as you hit the ground think explode its as easy as that. And bring the back hit to the front as fast as you can.

lead with hip
keep weight back
stay closed
explode when hit ground
Easy as 123

easy as that, huh? Someone’s got a lot of confidence.

I’ve sen ROGER on here take some issue with the term “stay back” cuz it makes guys lean back to second.

do you throw 90?

[quote=“andrew.ra.”]easy as that, huh? Someone’s got a lot of confidence.

I’ve sen ROGER on here take some issue with the term “stay back” cuz it makes guys lean back to second.[/quote]

I do take issue with the term “stay back”. It’s closely related to the “balance point”. To reach a balance point, one must “stay back”. But I don’t believe there really is a balance point. Looking at video of MLB pitchers reveals that they get their hips going before reaching the apex of their knee lift. Their weight is committed early so they never get to a position where they could stand balanced on their back leg.

Staying back also reduces the amount of momentum that is created. Linear momentum down the hill is converted into rotational momentum and has a direct effect on velocity.

Pitcher maximum,

Everheard of the theory that a player can reach his maximum what he can get out of his body.
Even if he succesfull learn every aspect of the pitching mechanics that doens’t mean that his body allows him to throw a ball on the speed that in theory should be thrown.

no i dont throw 90 but you people make pitching alot harder then it is. And there are only a couple of keys that you need if you wanna be a good pitcher. I think lead with the hip and stay closed is the key and theres not much more about it.

I only have one q’s when you hit and start hip rotation you bring your back hip to the front right as fast as you can?

i thought hip rotation had to be started with the leg drop. the stay close thing is all about the shoulders.


“no i dont throw 90 but you people make pitching alot harder then it is.”

Pitching isn’t hard, but throwing out a couple of cliches doesn’t cover it either. If was soooo blinkin easy they wouldn’t pay like they do. If you make it up to the higher levels of pitching, you find out rapidly that it is an all encompassing thing, stop working on one aspect and you A) lose speed, B) injure yourself or C) both. It is tough hard work and a grind, genetics is a factor, but so is diet, conditioning, mechanics specific work, strength training and just plain saavy. Having success as a younger player gets you filled with the hunger to take it higher and higher but the dedication, huge time commitment and just plain sweat factor…not to mention injury pares down all those asperations by the time the senior year rolls around. Over-simplification leads to false hope, much hard work and effort is the “Key”.

[quote=“4pie”]i thought hip rotation had to be started with the leg drop. the stay close thing is all about the shoulders.

wrong?[/quote]Yes, wrong. :smiley: That would be WAY too early. The shoulders definitely should wait until landing. The shoulders should start only upon the hips reaching their maximum velocity and that should be when the stretch of the muscles and connective tissues between the hips and shoulders are stretched to the point where they engage the shoulders. Nice timing challenge, isn’t it?

[quote=“RIStar”]…you have to stay back and lead with your hip ALL THE WAY TILL YOU LAND. [/quote]Says who? I know who. Dick Mills. RIStar, if you go back to his board and read the thread entitled “When to start to twist”, which is 3 pages in, you’ll see that I asked about this one and said the following:

The response back from Dick was as follows:

[quote]It probably would be better to look at pitchers just before their lead foot hits the ground when the front foot is still in the air and then look at their body alignment at that point.[/quote] and

So, this is his intent. Stay closed as long as possible during the stride but his definition of “closed at landing” really isn’t at landing, but just before. Just like everyone else!!! He included a pic of Roger Clemens where his foot is just above the ground, almost at landing and his hips are still aligned between second and home. This is what he showed as proof of his recommendation. Now, take Roger and step to where his foot has just actually landed and you’ll see something entirely different. You’ll see the hip / shoulder separation that we all have been talking about. He just doesn’t believe you should try to teach this and he might have a point there. Different people believe different things are “non-teach”. This is one of Dick’s.

You see, this is what I’ve been saying for years about Dick. People attribute all kinds of things to him that really aren’t true. He kind of invites it though. He says things like “nothing happens until footplant” but knows it’s not completely accurate. The danger is that some people will take it literally. Actually, most people will take it literally. The second quote from him that I showed above is what he really means but he’s flunking Communications 101. People slam him for saying that but, in reality, what people should decide whether or not to disagree with him on is whether or not hip / shoulder separation and hip rotation into landing is a “non-teach”, not whether or not it happens!!!

Dick also does NOT recommend the cue “stay back”. In some, it has the tendency to cause them to drop on the back leg and not get the centre of gravity moving toward the target early enough, causing the real definition of “early rotation” he’s referring to.

So, RIStar, your “enlightenment” of us all about not rotating before landing will need some backup. Mills can’t be used for that any more. Not that anyone on most boards would be satisfied even if he did back you up.

Ok I dont mean to be rude but, I think you should go side ways till foot turn open up then rotate i didnt mean that you wanted to be closed all the way. Also it has proved that Dick Mills does know alot about the mechaincs and the body along with Chris O leary but some people just will not listen. Dick Mills has worked with MLB pitchers for a number of years now. Chris O leary is working with a baseball organization right now. So tell me why people still think they dont know any things. I would like to know what your past with MLB pitchers is do you help caoch them? The people that think dick and o leary are wrong need to learn something because they are the ones that MLB organizations hired to help coach and evaluate talent.
Dick has done work with many great MLB pitchers. Also he has had many converstions with MLB stars like Roger Clemens and Kris Benson and Barry zito.
Dick is around baseball in the MLB acutaly he keeps in close contact with one of the best pitching coaches Rick Peterson. And i dont think Rick would talk to him if he didn’t think he knew what he was talking about.
So i would cut them a break because they are the ones that have done great things and the MLB organizations notice that.

Did I say Mills was wrong? Not about everything. Only about the hips being closed at landing, which is what he has said and then he agreed that it isn’t the case. Did you actually go and read that thread?

If you want to take Chris O’Leary’s recommendations, go for it. I’m not stopping you. I wouldn’t do it though. That’s no surprise. I agree with much of what Dick’s been saying but not everything. He was simply wrong when he stated that the hips do not open until AFTER landing. That’s been PROVEN thousands of times. Thousands. On video. Show me all of the proof that supports the idea that the hips are completely in line with second and home at landing. Good luck with that. Maybe in a submarine pitcher like Chad Bradfor but it’ll be difficult to find any in the rest.

And about Dick, or anybody, being right just because someone agrees with them means nothing in this context. House can claim just what Dick does about connections with MLB. Nyman can do the same re: Brent Strom. Wolforth too. Stephen Ellis played at a high level. The problem is that, despite all of the credibility that all of this may lend them, they all disagree with each other. Nyman slams Dick. Dick slams Nyman. Both slam House. Etc., etc. etc.

So, they’re not ALL right or are they. Like Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits said “Two men say they’re Jesus. One of them must be wrong.”

You never told me what you do with MLB player? Or if you coach or not?

I do not play or coach MLB players. What does that have to do with anything we’re speaking of?

Well i has just wondering if you where in MLB helping them.

Just because guys are coaching in MLB does not make them the most qualified to coach/teach.

I do think a lot of MLB coaches are underrated though and “gurus” get too much credit at times, simply because they are trying to sell products.

I don’t know of Mills working with any MLB teams. He claims to work with various pitchers, and his main claim is Zito who has worked with House, Jaegger, etc.

Right, palo.

RIStar. If you will believe nobody except those who worked with or played for a MLB team, you’re in the wrong place. Why are you here then? Why not just stay on Dick’s site where you get the “real answers”? This forum is for people with wide open minds.

By the way, did you read that thread I referred to?

As palo said, Zito’s been a claim to fame for more than just Mills. That’s not to discredit what Mills may have added to Zito when he did work with him. Zito’s father says good things about Mills and his role in Barry’s success.

Getting back to the point of this thread, the “absolute” statement of keeping the hips closed until landing is just plain wrong and is borne out by actual video of MLB pitchers AND also by Mills himself changing his words. Mills also speaks out against the “stay back” cue.

That was the point. Attacking me because I didn’t play or coach in the bigs is simply deflecting the discussion away from the real issue.

And, by the way, RIStar, I welcome you to go back over all of my posts on this board and tell me where I was so wrong. I must be wrong. I didn’t play or coach in the bigs. Right?

I wanted to know what you coached I never said i don’t agree with you on things. I didn’t know if you were a highschool or worked with MLB i just wanted to know what level you coached not to say that you are a bad coach. I just think you should stay side ways and keep your weight back. I think that the hip should be open at least 30%-45% when your foot hits the ground. And the reason i said stay back and side ways all the way till landing if when you tell someone that they will not open up as early.
So i’m srry if there was any confusion on this subject.

I think there can be lots of confusion with the “lead with the hip” statements that everyone seems to be making now. While it’s true that this is the most efficient way to throw, there is also some value in the “stay back” cue, just not in the way that most pitching coaches are teaching it these days.

The hip leads the way, but the upper body needs to stay back. Despite our trying to be quick, there is still a such thing as rushing, and getting out upper body going too quickly. So the “stay back” cue can still be used, as long as it’s in reference to the upper body staying back over the posting leg while the hips lead the way. One of the problems, especially with younger pitchers, is when we teach to lead with the hips, they misunderstand this and rush to the plate too much. The other thing that we forget to look at when looking at pitching mechanics is that repeatability is the most important thing, and no matter how many videos we post and suggestions that are made, it doesn’t matter unless a pitcher can repeat the same mechanics on pitch 1 as they do at pitch 90. That’s another reason why I think that teaching to lead with the hip needs to be done properly because once a pitcher gets tired, he will want to rush to the plate even more, forcing his arm to work too hard.

Interestingly, I just recently found out that “leading with the hip” is not all that new. I talked with a former big leaguer and current MLB scout who said that’s the way he learned to throw in the 70’s. If you watch a lot of old time players actually do this very well. Goose Gossage is one example I can think of.

palo, good points

The potential problem with the “lead with the hip” and “stay back” cues is that kids sometimes end up leaning back with the upper body too much. I agree that we need to be careful about getting the upper body out too early (rushing) but keeping the upper body back over the posting foot is also problematic. I think what House and Mills are speaking about when they refer to posture is intended to combat both of these flaws. The head and shoulders need to be behind but not excessively so.

I really don’t know what a good cue for this might be. Roger?