It sounds like it is personal


#1

Seems odd that people are encouraged to post their two cents worth and then scorned for doing so if it doesn’t fit into someone’s belief about pitching. All I can say is “way to go Chris” for taking it so well.

CADad, may I ask you exactly what qualifies you as an expert, or for that matter, someone who needs to tell Chris that he should stop posting about what he thinks about the mechanical nature of pitching? If you disagree, why not handle it the way Roger does - with a bit more class? I do not agree or understand everything Chris gets at, but good night - it is isn’t personal.


#2

[quote=“shermanreed”]Seems odd that people are encouraged to post their two cents worth and then scorned for doing so if it doesn’t fit into someone’s belief about pitching. All I can say is “way to go Chris” for taking it so well.

CADad, may I ask you exactly what qualifies you as an expert, or for that matter, someone who needs to tell Chris that he should stop posting about what he thinks about the mechanical nature of pitching? If you disagree, why not handle it the way Roger does - with a bit more class? I do not agree or understand everything Chris gets at, but good night - it is isn’t personal.[/quote]everyone needs to just relax and listen to cauterize, the best music in the world


#3

hey CADad, stop being a prick. Chris works really hard to analyze mechanics and you should respect that whether everything he believes is true or not. Everybody here submits their opinions…including you. so stop blasting him for trying to help. Keep up the good work Chris. Im a big fan of your posts and i read them all.


#4

As do I read alot of them aswell. They are usually helpful and well written. People need to stop criticising other people if they can’t take it. Besides we are all only postin what we think is right and trying to help one another. Everybody needs to chill out.


#5

[quote=“shermanreed”]Seems odd that people are encouraged to post their two cents worth and then scorned for doing so if it doesn’t fit into someone’s belief about pitching. All I can say is “way to go Chris” for taking it so well.

CADad, may I ask you exactly what qualifies you as an expert, or for that matter, someone who needs to tell Chris that he should stop posting about what he thinks about the mechanical nature of pitching? If you disagree, why not handle it the way Roger does - with a bit more class? I do not agree or understand everything Chris gets at, but good night - it is isn’t personal.[/quote]

Whitesox, Ill jump in because I have given Chris more grief than anybody on this site. Why? Because he deserves it! Why? Because his understanding of biomechanical principles and how they REALLY apply to pitching is truncated due to his lack of real knowledge, in my opinion only. In short Im sick of hearing or reading Chris spout of on how this guy or that guy is on the road to disaster all because he says so with NOTHING more than his uneducated theories! This guy in my opinion is a “potential killer” for all that he becomes involved with. Why, Because for one he downplays so many critical elements within a solid delivery thinking his way is better when in most cases physics dictates his theores dont even get off the ground within the realm of successful pitchers! Discrediting many attributes that actually MADE and ENABLED many to pitch at the highest of levels. In other words he wants me to believe he knows better and can get better results by doing less in some cases, that AINT gonna happen in the real world my friend. By the time Chris is done ruining a kids chances, thats it. By 14 or 15 mechanics are deeply engrained into the neuro system, For most changing this is all but impossible. In other words you dont get to many chances to “get it right” for most anyhow. Couple this with teaching it wrong and where does the well intentioned kid end up? Who knows but it aint on a pitching mound getting it done thats for sure! You are obviously free to follow and believe whoever you want, I encourgae it. Just remember millions were convinced Hitler had it all figured out, did he??? I am in NO way comparing Chris to Hitler so please nobody even bother to go there. a simple analogy is all it is!I also am not implying that I have it all figured out. Although in this realm I must say I have forgotten more than Chris will ever be aware of, again my opinion only! Ill give you one example- stretching, I read so much B.S. related to stretching it is actually sad. Chris has brought up several points about why a person should NOT stretch, thats just flat out WRONG. there is some truth to what he says but he is also discounting another important aspect to the whole gyst of the studies that were done. I will not go into great detail because I simply do not want to waste anymore of my time. If your interested read some of what Gary Gray has written in regards to stretching, he is perhaps the best physical therapist in the whole country. Or Brad Walker, read what he has to say about stretching. Or my own sons ortho doc Stephen Karageanes. these people actually know it is their lives. So if you cannot believe me which makes no difference to me. I challenge you to read and educate yourself as to what the REAL pros have to say. Or check out “g.i.r.d.” and its inmplications to pitchers and how it can and has been reversed and avoided though a series of simple stretches, in some cases it has literally saved pitchers from certain doom. You see I know because I have used with success many of these principles when I train people and guess what? they are with merit!enough is enough end of discussion for me!


#6

Like I said, don’t get all bent out of shape over someone’s opinion. If I post something on there I have results to back it up. I am not condoning Chris, I am simply telling people not to criticise someone else for their beliefs or opinons if you can’t take it yourself. If someone tells me I’m wrong, I do some research on what they said and I find out who is right. If they are I say you are right and I have just learned something. Why can’t people have good sportsman ship and good judgment and determination. If you don’t know much about something somebody is posting about and you are not sure, don’t believe it. You don’t have to believe everything you read. Bottom line.


#7

I really don’t know what I am doing on this forum, but I thought it might be a great way to help educate people about the proper way to practice pitching. Pitching Mechanics are extremely important because you want to maximize your potential and decrease risk of injury, but pitching really boils down to practice. Please check out the following website:

Thanks,

JEL


#8

Joseph
You said:

[quote]…pitching really boils down to practice[/quote]Not really. The only time practice helps is if it’s good practice. Practicing poor mechanics will help get you very good at poor mechanics. These boards are about getting you there, not about selling a product.


#9

dm59…nice…


#10

Gentlemen
Chris, and everyone else, is perfectly entitled to post his “opinion” or “notions” if he wants. Chinmusic or anyone else is perfectly entitled to disagree and point out where others are incorrect. That’s how we’ll all learn here. I just hope we can keep name calling and nastiness out of it. I’ve disagreed myself with much of what Chris has posted but I hope I haven’t been disrespectful to him as a person. We’ll continue to disagree, I’m sure. I only hope that we can all back up our claims with something credible. So far, this board’s been great.

Like I said to Steven last week, this board should be a “safe place for people to be wrong.” What I mean by that is, if we get personal or disrespectful, the board might be seen as a place where the beginners who want to post might be too fearful of reprisal and then disappear.

Now, that doesn’t mean that we can’t challenge posts. Doing that is the fundamental premise of these types of boards. That’s how misinformation gets fixed. We just need to do it in a respectful manner firstly because it’s the right thing to do but also so that others won’t be afraid to post.


#11

I agree totally. You might scare off uneasy or unsure new comers and make them stay from posting and this board will grow. I like critization it is good. When you try to correct some just do it in a politte manner. Respectfully. Thank you. Hope this is the last post here…“sigh”…


#12

:stuck_out_tongue:


#13

[quote=“chinmusic”][quote=“shermanreed”]Seems odd that people are encouraged to post their two cents worth and then scorned for doing so if it doesn’t fit into someone’s belief about pitching. All I can say is “way to go Chris” for taking it so well.

CADad, may I ask you exactly what qualifies you as an expert, or for that matter, someone who needs to tell Chris that he should stop posting about what he thinks about the mechanical nature of pitching? If you disagree, why not handle it the way Roger does - with a bit more class? I do not agree or understand everything Chris gets at, but good night - it is isn’t personal.[/quote]

Whitesox, Ill jump in because I have given Chris more grief than anybody on this site. Why? Because he deserves it! Why? Because his understanding of biomechanical principles and how they REALLY apply to pitching is truncated due to his lack of real knowledge, in my opinion only. In short Im sick of hearing or reading Chris spout of on how this guy or that guy is on the road to disaster all because he says so with NOTHING more than his uneducated theories! This guy in my opinion is a “potential killer” for all that he becomes involved with. Why, Because for one he downplays so many critical elements within a solid delivery thinking his way is better when in most cases physics dictates his theores dont even get off the ground within the realm of successful pitchers! Discrediting many attributes that actually MADE and ENABLED many to pitch at the highest of levels. In other words he wants me to believe he knows better and can get better results by doing less in some cases, that AINT gonna happen in the real world my friend. By the time Chris is done ruining a kids chances, thats it. By 14 or 15 mechanics are deeply engrained into the neuro system, For most changing this is all but impossible. In other words you dont get to many chances to “get it right” for most anyhow. Couple this with teaching it wrong and where does the well intentioned kid end up? Who knows but it aint on a pitching mound getting it done thats for sure! You are obviously free to follow and believe whoever you want, I encourgae it. Just remember millions were convinced Hitler had it all figured out, did he??? I am in NO way comparing Chris to Hitler so please nobody even bother to go there. a simple analogy is all it is!I also am not implying that I have it all figured out. Although in this realm I must say I have forgotten more than Chris will ever be aware of, again my opinion only! Ill give you one example- stretching, I read so much B.S. related to stretching it is actually sad. Chris has brought up several points about why a person should NOT stretch, thats just flat out WRONG. there is some truth to what he says but he is also discounting another important aspect to the whole gyst of the studies that were done. I will not go into great detail because I simply do not want to waste anymore of my time. If your interested read some of what Gary Gray has written in regards to stretching, he is perhaps the best physical therapist in the whole country. Or Brad Walker, read what he has to say about stretching. Or my own sons ortho doc Stephen Karageanes. these people actually know it is their lives. So if you cannot believe me which makes no difference to me. I challenge you to read and educate yourself as to what the REAL pros have to say. Or check out “g.i.r.d.” and its inmplications to pitchers and how it can and has been reversed and avoided though a series of simple stretches, in some cases it has literally saved pitchers from certain doom. You see I know because I have used with success many of these principles when I train people and guess what? they are with merit!enough is enough end of discussion for me![/quote]

Well I guess I’ll put my two cents in. All the theories on whether you should stretch or not stretch are just that…theories. For every so called expert, including yourself, there are just as many other experts that will disagree with you. For instance, Mills is a proponent of the thinking that too much stretching ruins your ability to create the tension you need to get the whip action. So is Dick Mills an idiot? He happened to have a pretty solid career even though he didn’t make it in the pro’s. Seems having the highest ranked son out there in college is evidence the guy knows what the F he’s doing.

So whether you THINK you are right, and whether that’s the truth. Here’s some advice. If you don’t like what someone is saying on here diplomatically debate the issue but don’t be a condenscending bitch about it. Because you lose all and any credibiliy you have when you do it. And as for Cadad, I’d suggest the same thing. I’d be worrying more about getting your son healthy than ripping apart a guy who cares and devotes a lot of time to his own theories. After all, if you knew everything you think you do, would your kid be hurt in the first place. Get a grip and chill out.


#14

Absolutely agree. The stuff you guys debate and post is phenomenal. I happen to appreciate the different views on the different subjects. That’s why the disrespect needs to come to an end. We are all wired differently, if you disagree say so because that’s what makes a good message board, but do it without making personal attacks.

It’s easy to do that stuff, just debate the technical nature of the argument.


#15

I have a question for everyone.

What is the goal of a pitcher?


#16

:roll: You just had to Roger…lol :slight_smile:


#17

[quote=“arner8”]… don’t be a condenscending b**** about it.[/quote]arner8.
Don’t you think this is just as bad as what you’re speaking out against?

[quote=“arner8”]And as for Cadad, I’d suggest the same thing. …After all, if you knew everything you think you do, would your kid be hurt in the first place.[/quote]There could be hundreds of reasons why CADad’s son has been hurt. None of us on this board knows that. I’m sure even CASon’s physicians are trying to figure it out. This is a nasty activity. Putting the muscles and connective tissues of the shoulder and elbow under such large stresses with the best of mechanics and training regimens can still result in injury.

So, arner8, although I agree with us wanting to be diplomatic about disagreements, your post wasn’t.


#18

Based on what Chris has posted here and elsewhere I believe that Chris has limited baseball knowledge and is trying to pass himself off as somebody with a lot of baseball knowledge. He’s obviously fooled a lot of people including himself. I think he really believes he’s helping people and doesn’t understand how little he really knows. Those of us who have been around baseball for a long time have seen too many wannabe experts with little or no baseball experience walking up to kids and giving them unsolicited instruction that is either wrong or wrong for that kid. This is the same thing just on the internet. I think that allowing somebody like that free rein is dangerous.

I’m not an expert by any means and people shouldn’t take me to be one. However, I have enough of a baseball background, having coached for over 30 years from T-ball through HS and having played in HS, college, the Angels organization (at the very lowest level possible, more semi-pro than pro), having done clinics with the Angels and having done enough research to know a wannabe when I see one and Chris is a wannabe, albeit a well meaning one. Well meaning or not the road to heck is paved with good intentions.

If I disagree with Chris and it is simply my opinion I’ll say so and people can make their own judgement, because lets face it my opinions are wrong at times. However, most of the time when I disagree with Chris I’ll find documented proof such as quoting Dr. Neal ElAttrache one of the world’s foremost experts in sports orthapedics to directly contradict one of Chris’ statements about tendon and ligament healing and strengthening. Or I might point out clear and obvious flaws in his “analysis” that any individual can check for themselves. I don’t do it to try and be an expert because I’m not. I do it because I see people being taken in by a wannabe and I’d like them to at least look at some of his claims with a reasoned approach rather than accepting him as an expert based on absolutely nothing. I also will react to his trying to twist one of my statements by proving his lack of knowledge through simple physics.

How do you feel when some dad who never played baseball walks up to a kid and starts telling him to raise his elbow while hitting because that’s what used to be taught or tells him to lower his elbow because that’s the current over reaction to “raise the elbow”? (Neither is correct or wrong, it is a matter of individual preference and either approach can either help or hurt a player depending on the rest of their swing mechanics and is something only an experienced hitting instructor should experiment with.) I know what I feel. I feel angry. That’s how I feel and how I react when I see Chris post something that is wrong or could mislead someone.

Much of the anger began when someone would ask about arm pain and Chris would start blabbering about mechanics (stuff parroted straight from Mike Marshall) without a word about seeing a doctor. I challenged that every time I caught it and now at least he’ll pass on that they should see a doctor. The fact is that nobody has a clue about anyone’s mechanics from the internet and that the only thing you can do is speculate. That leaves the only reasonable course as recommending going to a qualified sports medicine doctor or orthopedist when someone asks for help with an injury or pain. Mechanics should never enter into the discussion, although I understand the desire to meddle and have strayed at times myself. Messing up someone’s mechanics is one thing and generally people will recover but giving people bad or unproven advice about medical problems is just plain dangerous.


#19

arner8,
One of the absolutes about posting on these sites is that no one goes after another’s child. You’ve passed that boundary and you owe me and every one else on the site an apology. Chris and I may disagree about a lot of things but at least he’s sincerely trying to help people and he would never stoop so low as you have.

By the way, my son’s primary injury was Spondylolysis something that is primarily due to a genetic predisposition and that was aggravated while he was training with the HS baseball team something that I had no control of. He then hurt his arm while under the direct care of a Sports Medicine doctor and qualified physical therapists when an unqualified HS freshman coach had him throw too much too soon after a long rest. Once again something I had no control over. At every step we’ve had therapists familiar with throwing rehabilitation involved in the process. Even so, according to one of the world’s foremost elbow surgeons and one of the foremost radiologists his tendons and ligaments are fine. They believe that his problem is a nerve problem and once again something that he is genetically predisposed to. Ironically enough it is aggravated by the excessive pronation that Chris is so fond of (I don’t disagree with Chris on the value of pronation and the danger of supination while throwing). The other possibility is that he simply reinjured a muscle due to overly aggressive physical therapy during his latest return to throwing.


#20

Chinmusic,
Based on what I’ve read pre-activity stretching has a tendency to pre-tear muscles and increase the probability of injury. As a result the preferred approach is more of a warm up than the traditional stretching. Personally, without a lot to base it on, I don’t believe it matters much one way or another if someone stretches before playing. My limited experience comes from competitive tennis and I saw a lot of people who would stretch before matches pulling muscles while I simpled worked my way into the activity very gradually without stretching and never pulled a muscle while playing. Tennis is different from baseball in that there is a lot more downtime in baseball and much more opportunity to stiffen up. Does that mean stretching is better or worse? Got me.

That doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t stretch. Properly done stretching can improve range of motion and reduce the chances of injury. The only question is when it should be done. I prefer post activity.