How to teach hips/torso/shoulder

Gentlemen, this has been a great thread!!

Again, I’m going to advocate for a holistic approach to mechanics discussions. I find statements like drop 'n drive, tall 'n fall, drive with the back leg or pull from the front side very limiting in providing productive cues or advice for getting aspiring pitchers to achieve the desired results. Yes, it’s a pull from the front. Yes, it’s a drive from the back side. Yes, it’s drop 'n drive. Yes, it’s tall 'n fall. It’s all of those things and more. It’s all happening in varying degrees at varying times in the delivery.

This is why I also advocate for reverse progression methods when teaching this stuff. Now, I didn’t come up with that of course. Actually, I had my eyes opened over the last year to this approach. Of all people to do that, Paul Nyman exposed me to the concept. I then read some articles by learning researchers and finally “woke up”. Now, I’m using it with 6 kids I’m working with over the winter and am having success with it.

What I like is that they “get it” and that it is conducive to them developing that smoothness in putting it all together.

Exactly! I agree with everything you are saying. When the back knee rotates inward, you get more power out of your legs. Thats what I meant by back leg drive, I just defintly did not describe it that good at all. Thats what I was trying to show in frames 2 and 3, how his back knee kind of shifted inward (more toward 3 or 4 though). But its not that good of a pic to show the inward knee rotation, dm59 you think you could find one to show else what we are talking about here?

Good one of Curt Schilling in his rehab stint with Pawtucket last year, hes leading with his hip, weight’s back. I hope this picture explains more of what I mean by “weight back”, its not that his weight is extremely on his back leg, its just hes leaning a LITTLE bit back.

[quote=“Redsox04”]

Good one of Curt Schilling in his rehab stint with Pawtucket last year, hes leading with his hip, weight’s back. I hope this picture explains more of what I mean by “weight back”, its not that his weight is extremely on his back leg, its just hes leaning a LITTLE bit back.[/quote]

Look at this pic and reread what I said. Hes a good example of what good posture in regards to my post is all about. This angle would also be achieved as soon as he starts foward movement. The hips is slighly ahead of knee which is slightly ahead of ankle but the line is straight. This is how one sets up the body to rotate powerfully into landing.

the rotation of the back knee IS the leg drive. As the knee turns the center should also lower a bit, as in sit into landing this is what enables the pelvis to rotate the posture is what makes it powerful. Cant stay tall all the way through and still rotate well. however sitting to early will change the posture and create a body position that will not be used to the best of its advantage to generate potential for a powerful landing.

Exactly! I agree with everything you are saying. When the back knee rotates inward, you get more power out of your legs. Thats what I meant by back leg drive, I just defintly did not describe it that good at all. Thats what I was trying to show in frames 2 and 3, how his back knee kind of shifted inward (more toward 3 or 4 though). But its not that good of a pic to show the inward knee rotation, dm59 you think you could find one to show else what we are talking about here?[/quote]

You’re right guys. The weight is back “a little”. I’m just recommending that it’s not really that productive a cue. Not that you can’t use it with success, just that focussing on the hip movement out is, in my opinion of course, a much better way to get the result we’re all agreeing on. The staying back cue CAN, not will, cause some kids to keep the centre of gravity from moving forward agressively.

Now, broken record time from me!! :wink: Stills only show one position but video puts them in context. I have many that show this back leg action and will share them if you want. Just PM me with your email address.

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”][quote=“dm59”][quote=“Redsox04”]
Staying back like this will enable you to get more drive out of your back leg[/quote]I don’t get this one. Looking at the pic, the back leg is pretty much finished with any “driving” it might have done[/quote]

I agree.

By this point in the motion, I think the ability of the pitching arm side leg to help is limited (but not zero).[/quote]

HUH? Wrong again Chris, neither his back side knee has turned in nor has his stride leg turned over in fact he hasnt even began to rotate into footplant yet. These two things should happen simutaniously. As in, the back PUSHES the front open. The stride leg turns over which helps facilitate the back leg drive WHICH is the push info footplant. Up intil this point the back side leg has virtually done nothing in terms of driving into footplant.

People, Why did everybody stop posting on this thread? Schilling has set himself up well for what may be the most vital part of the delivery in regards to how fast you will be able to ultimately throw the ball, understanding this part of the delivery should be a goal for all aspiring pitchers who wish to perform to their best potential.[/img]

Why is this the most important thing and how does a person get to this postion in their delivery? Do I initiate my delivery with my lead hip and fall or the ol’ down and out and does the speed oif my delivery really matter?

Grimes 20, Why? In general everything he has done up until this point will determine how much power/energy he has built to rotate into landing. His posture is also important for maintaining dynamic balance [ staying balanced while in motion]Most high level pitchers build momentum into landing, one way they do this is directly associated with when they start moving out. Having the ability to perform this part of the delivery like many high level pitchers do is not easy for most. This plays a role in determining how much power/energy he will have to transfer up the chain and ultimately to the baseball. You have to think in terms of building energy/power and transferring it from one segment of the motion to the next,part of pitching is being efficient. One surefire way to measure efficiency,at least in part, is by how much time it takes to do the task. Watch some video clips of what great pitchers do and how they do it. Watch how most do not go down and out [your question], this is another important part of the motion for some pitchers, you gotta also realize that whats important for one guy may mean nothing to another, therein lies the real problem as in having the right guy to tell YOU what you need to be doing.

No, a pitcher initiates his delivery by putting force against the ground. Again, in general how well he can build off this intial force plays a vital role in regards to the amount of energy he is able to generate and transfer up the chain!

should I be trying to “fire my hips” right before I land or should i just let the rotation happen? I have been practicing getting into / this position around my house and keeping the front hip closed when I am throwing. Also i noticed it seems like everything is behind that front hip when hard throwers throw. sometimes even their lead arm is behind the hip until landing. Is this what I should be working on?

Grimes20
Most people would recommend you fire the hips right before you land as opposed to just letting it happen. You do this by rotating at the core assisted by the front foot and knee turning and the back leg and foot spinning. As the stride begins, the back foot should roll over onto it’s instep without the heel coming away from the rubber too soon. That foot then spins (the heel comes up and over) over onto the laces as the rotation of the hips happens. Remember that this is a SMOOOOOTH, unified motion, not a segmented, step by step thing.

:!: Warning: opinions only to follow :!: Other opinions or suggestions welcome. :slight_smile:

  1. Fire the front hip sideways no later than at high knee lift. This is done naturally by the hip flexors and then it’s assisted by gravity because the centre of gravity is now ahead of it’s support (the back foot). If you didn’t stride with your front leg, you’d fall on your butt.
  2. The front leg smoothly drops and moves outward. Be careful not to drop it straight down and then out in 2 steps. If you do, the kinetic energy built up will be lost and won’t be able to assist in the stride and lower body rotation.
  3. Everything stays sideways until the front foot is just about to turn over to land. The upper body is now just going through the horizontal W.
  4. Start with the lower body, not just the hips. Remember, front leg, back leg and back foot spinning. While this lower body rotation is happening, the throwing arm is continuing it’s smooooooth motion up in it’s journey to go through the high cocked position.
  5. The front foot lands and the front leg braces/stops the front hip’s forward motion suddenly. The energy just built up is now transferred into the throwing side hip and core. The separation of the hips and shoulders that results here facilitates a “coupling” of these 2 elements and any further hip rotation will have an effect on the shoulders.
  6. The shoulders and back elbow rotate CAUSING (you shouldn’t be trying to do this, it’s a result of the timing of the parts) the hand and ball to take that distinctive loop back, down and around before coming up and over to and beyond release as the chest is thrust out and toward the target. The torso flexes then flexes forward into the follow through to a nice, flat back finish.

The longer you can delay the opening of your glove-side hip, the better. However, it has to open up before landing in order for your glove-side foot to point to the target.

At this point I would focus on…

  1. Delaying when the front hip opens.

  2. Ensuring that the hips rotate before the shoulders.

Grimes, You need to check out some real clips of some real pitchers and look how they coordinate their bodies. That would be to the best of your benefit. Nobody here has seen you throw, that alone makes it impossible to offer any sound advice on your present mechanics anyone that claims otherwise is kidding you.

I have clips of many high level pitchers and i often slow them down to look. I ask ppls thoughts to get cues and explanations of things. I have been on setpro’s boards for a long time now but this thread right here has helped more than anything so far…Thanks to all that have posted…Some ppl see things differently therefore i want everyones thoughts…Chinmusic your long post and explanation has been the most help so far. Something clicked in my head and it helped…(Pg2-long post)…I will try and get video soon

Grimes, Grimes that how you learn eventually something clicks and a connection is made. Im glad your understanding. Semantics plays a huge NEGATIVE role when trying to portray/understand such a complex motion through text only. You sound like a bright kid. You need to study your mechanics and some high level pitchers mechanics and see where the real differences are as well as when [time relation]. Im not advocating trying to become what you are not, the fact is many high level pitchers do many of the same things with very little varience in between. The point is the more you can learn about what high level pitchers do as well as yourself. The more you will be able to help yourself. Let me know when you get a clip of yourself, good luck!

One thing I should mention is that you should be studying the mechanics of guys who had long, injury-free careers…

  • Maddux
  • Glavine
  • Seaver
  • Ryan
  • Gibson
  • Clemens (later years)

…and avoid looking at the mechanics of guys who have had short, injury-plagued careers…

  • Nen
  • Wagner
  • Prior
  • Wood

I think mechanics are related to injuries (or the lack thereof).