How to teach hips/torso/shoulder


#1

I was wondering how I could teach myself how to use my lower body more effiecently…How to get maximum seperation and how to get more power out of my leggs??
Thanks,
Grayson


#2

Learn to stay back the whole time you are throwing, literally have your front shoulder tilted up when your front foot has almost hit the ground.

Staying back like this will enable youto get more drive out of your back leg


#3

I’m not sure that having the shoulders tilted is the best cue. For one thing, It’s not what I see a lot of really successful, largely injury-free pitchers do. They are far more likely to have their shoulders closer to level.

When working with my guys I first and foremost get them focused on leading the rotation with their hips. This naturally creates the differential and causes the shoulders to lag behind (which is good).

I think there are some other activities that you can work on leading with the hips that will help your pitching…

  • Golf swing.
  • Baseball swing.
  • Martial arts punch.

In all of the three activities, maximum poser comes from starting the rotation from the bottom up with the hips.


#4

[quote=“Redsox04”]
Staying back like this will enable you to get more drive out of your back leg[/quote]I don’t get this one. Looking at the pic, the back leg is pretty much finished with any “driving” it might have done (and the term “drive” in this context is very debatable). He’s about to rotate into landing. We could have a long debate about what happens with the leg/foot at this particular point.

So, how does the tilt of the shoulders at this point in the delivery, or at any time, help you get more out of the back leg?


#5

But you have to remember Chris that the only reason the hips “lead the way” on those actions are because the arms get maximum extension, when done correctly. Especially, when your dealing with hitting. So, in our training, it is so important to stress extension to create the “lag” that your talking about. I think, only my opinion, the most effective way to teach these actions is through backwards chaining.

Furthermore, I think it is absolutely necessary for pitchers to create front side tilt. It really goes back to the “crow hop” style of throwing. The momentum gained from the ground up can greatly reduce stress on the arm, when the proper action of early forearm turnover is applied. It has really helped our players with staying healthy.

Thanks.


#6

[quote=“CoachKreber”]But you have to remember Chris that the only reason the hips “lead the way” on those actions are because the arms get maximum extension, when done correctly. Especially, when your dealing with hitting. So, in our training, it is so important to stress extension to create the “lag” that your talking about. I think, only my opinion, the most effective way to teach these actions is through backwards chaining.

Furthermore, I think it is absolutely necessary for pitchers to create front side tilt. I really goes back to the “crow hop” style of throwing. The momentum gained from the ground up can greatly reduce stress on the arm, when the proper action of early forearm turnover is applied. It has really helped our players with staying healthy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Coach Kreber
Would you please explain “backwards chaining”?


#7

dm59 Ill post another pic that hopefully explains what I am trying to say

Also I do not mean tilt your shoulders to the extent that Pettie does, more like the way Clemens does. (even though it works for Pettite) And even if you have minimal tilt or no tilt, no major league pitcher you are going to see has their weight forward while they are pitching, its always back.

On this one,look at the second and third frames and look at the drive he is getting out of his back leg and how all of his weight is back


#8

Redsox04
You say to look at frames 2 & 3 for back leg “drive”. I see no back leg drive. Check out the angle of the bend in the knee. From frames 2 and 3 there is no change in it. Actually, there is very little change at all from start to finish. The back leg rotates more than it drives. Now I’m not saying there’s no push because there is force applied. I’m just proposing that the active mechanism isn’t “back leg drive”. The back foot rolls over onto the instep, then it contiues to roll over onto the laces. The back knee rotates inward as the centre of gravity moves out. This inward rotation of the back leg happens mostly as the back foot is still fully against the rubber. Man, I wish I could post video!!! I propose that this back knee inward rotation is a huge part of the lower body contribution. More so than “back leg drive”.

[quote]no major league pitcher you are going to see has their weight forward while they are pitching, its always back[/quote]I have to disagree with this one. Maybe it’s just a matter of wording but the centre of gravity is moving forward throughout the pitch until landing. The upper body then comes forward while the shoulders rotate. So, to say the weight is “always back” isn’t quite descriptive of how the pitching motion goes. The shoulders may tilt a bit but I believe focussing on it is again “barking up the wrong tree”. I propose that the real focus should be on the front hip moving forward and the shoulder tilt will be partially a result of that and partially a matter of style.


#9

dm59, show me a picture where the pitcher has their weight in the front in their stride and I will believe you, but until then I’m sticking to what I said. Of course the pitchers weight is going to be in the front at the end of their motion, but until then it is back (unless I see some evidence proving me wrong)


#10

Like I said, it’s a matter of semantics. Can you explain what you mean by “weight back”? Also, where did I say that the weight is in the front during the stride? I didn’t. In my post, I said that talking about keeping the weight back isn’t productive. I then proposed what I believe is a more productive way to conceptualize the motion. A possible down side to the keeping the weight back cue is that kids may not get that centre of gravity moving forward efficiently but will “keep it back” too long. My son had this problem as did many other kids I have seen. Again, I believe (my opinion only) that a better cue is to focus on the front hip moving out rather than “keeping the weight back”.


#11

Great pics. I’m glad we’re using them more frequently in this section. I think it really helps to depict the various elements of pitching mechanics. I pitched against Andy Pettite when he was a Yankee. He was rehabbing at the Yankees Spring Training (Legends Field) facility in Tampa, Fla., in 2002. I was pitching for the Daytona Cubs (a Chicago Cubs minor league affiliate, of course.) He had very smooth mechanics. Big butt and big legs. Something to be said for that as we’re talking about keeping weight back. Work those legs!

While it’s true that keeping weight back is important. Perhaps more importantly, you should “lead with the front hip” during that forward movement to the plate. Helps to get a nice long stride. Helps to keep the hips closed. And helps to keep from “staying back” too long, as DM59 referenced.


#12

What I mean by keeping your weight back is not jumping forward, or being too anxious to throw the ball. I mean that your center of gravity is close to your “driving” leg which is “back” .Certainly the center of gravity is moving forward until landing but just think about as if you were pitching, when you were just about to throw the ball, what is the best place to throw it from, if you are balanced on your center of gravity (staying “back”) or if your weight is out on front?


#13

[quote=“Redsox04”]I mean that your center of gravity is close to your “driving” leg which is “back”.[/quote]I’m sorry but I still don’t get this. The centre of gravity should be moving away from the back leg until landing. It shouldn’t stay close to the back leg for any significant length of time. If we look at video of MLB pitchers, we’ll see that they don’t keep their centre of gravity back at all. They lead with the front hip but the upper body doesn’t get ahead until landing. So, the “stay back” cue isn’t a great one because it can lead to problems. It can lead to tempo issues such as being too slow and mechanical moving forward to landing.

[quote=“Redsox04”]…when you were just about to throw the ball, what is the best place to throw it from, if you are balanced on your center of gravity (staying “back”) or if your weight is out on front?[/quote]Again, nobody is suggesting that your weight should be “out on front”, except of course when your weight has been transferred fully onto the landing leg when all of the torso rotation is happening.


#14

[quote=“dm59”][quote=“Redsox04”]
Staying back like this will enable you to get more drive out of your back leg[/quote]I don’t get this one. Looking at the pic, the back leg is pretty much finished with any “driving” it might have done[/quote]

I agree.

By this point in the motion, I think the ability of the pitching arm side leg to help is limited (but not zero).


#15

I agree.

At this point I think of it more as hip-pull. The hips turn and pull the torso and then the shoulders around. The more the pitching arm side leg can come free of the rubber, the more the hips can turn and the more powerfully the shoulders can rotate.

To that end, one drill may be to teach guys to not leave their pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber and instead let it come off of the rubber. That will extend the distance over which the hips can turn.

Of course, that is easier to do if you don’t take too big of a stride. If you take too big of a stride, then the pitching arm side foot has to stay well back for balance.


#16

This is absolutely critical because it lets the hips keep turning.

For anatomical reasons, if the pitching arm side leg is kept externally rotated (knee up), then the hips cannot rotate as much as if the pitching arm side leg internally rotates.

You can try this at home.


#17

The center of gravity is always behind the glove-side foot, but it moves forward toward the glove-side foot as the pitching motion progresses. Exactly how far forward it moves depends on how much the pitcher lunges into the glove-side knee.


#18

This is a critical point.

The longer you can keep the front hip closed, the more powerfully you will be able to rotate your hips, torso, and shoulders.

For example, see my analysis of Steve Carlton’s motion…

Notice how in frame 16.1 Carlton still has his hips closed (his glove-side leg is internally rotated with his knee pointing toward 1B).[/url]


#19

I certainly agree that you will be able to most powerfully rotate your hips, torso, and shoulders if you do it on top of a balanced base. Get your weight too far forward and this gets very hard to do.


#20

[quote=“Grimes20”]I was wondering how I could teach myself how to use my lower body more effiecently…How to get maximum seperation and how to get more power out of my leggs??

                    Thanks,
                                 Grayson[/quote]

Grayson, To attain the most efficient powerful drive into rotation you must first understand body posture. Pitching is a ground up activity, EVERYHTING starts from there. The alignment from ankle to knee to hip/pelvis must be on the right angle in order to obtain optimum performance. Im am not talking about a vertical straight line that leads from ankle to knee to hip/pelvis, such as items that may be stacked on top of each other making a straight up and down column, thats what you dont want. Each segment should be ever so slightly infront of the next While the pitcher does stay stacked. Perhaps think in terms like this but also realize these are not perfect examples but you may get the gyst. Dont think of the back leg as straight up and down as your going into landing. If the vertical straight line of the T were the leg like this l and the horizontal line on top of the T was the pelvis you would have something like this T, that would NOT put you in optimum posture to power rotate into landing. Think in terms of being more like this with the back leg / driving left to right while also crossing the top like you did with the T as the pelvis but now you see how the hip is a little in front of the rest but there still is a straight line from ankle to knee to pelvis/hip its just a little angled. The horozontal line on the top which references the pelvis/hip should also be a little angled the opposite way to form a bow/arch for lack of better terminology. This is the posture used by many high level pitchers it is also one reason why pitchers start moving out before the stride leg knee reaches its apex. This is one reason why pitchers have a tough time staying dynamically balanced. Keeping the weight back while still maintaing a level of “being stacked” WHILE performing this is not an easy thing to just do, it takes practice. This IS one area of where and HOW high level pitchers generate power into landing. It also serves to illustrate how nothing is pulled open from the front its driven open from the backside. When think in terms of pulling somethig open versus pushing from the back it should be easy to see how some people are referred to as rushing. Tryiing to delvelop power by pulling from the front can and often does cause the person to get out of sync and ahead of themselves with what should be the next segment to be pushed open. THIS PLAYS A HUGE ROLE IN A TRULY POWERFUL DELIVERY.