How Hardold Ramis (Actually) Throws The Ball


#1

The other day, I came across this photo of Harold Ramis throwing out a ceremonial first pitch. While I generally like his mechanics (pitching arm side forearm up early and hips rotating ahead of shoulders), in this photo he is doing one thing that some of my 11Us do that I believe may cost them velocity; he points his Pitching Arm Side toe at Home Plate rather than at 3B.

I have a theory about why this could cost a player velocity, but would be interested in what others think about this.

Is it actually problematic and if so, why?

Dm? Roger? Anyone else?


#2

is this a serious thread?


#3

EDIT: I misread Chris’s original post and my original reply didn’t make sense so I deleted it and replaced it with the following. Apologies to smokky1 whose reply to my original post is now out of context. :lol:

I’ve never had a pitcher do that so I can’t speak from experience on this one. I assume this is an issue from the wind-up only as I can’t imagine how anyone could point their pivot foot at home plate in the stretch. But what do they look like at knee lift?

Regardless, I would think that pointing the pivot foot at home plate would prevent you from getting the hips closed all the way before striding which would seem to preclude an explosive opening of the hips thereby limiting velocity.


#4

[quote=“Roger”]Assuming this is serious…

Iit appears his front foot is in the process of planting so it could be that the back foot is just about to turn over. Obviously, if he leaves the foot in that position, it will limit hip rotation which could certainly affect velocity.

Looks like good hip and shoulder separation for an old guy. :D[/quote]

are you serious? :roll:


#5

I understand what you’re talking about. But my question is why you’re comparing it to this pitchers who is just throwing out the opening pitch with no seriousness? is it just for a visual example.

anyways i think Roger is correct. You would have less explosive action.


#6

Yes.

I have several 11U guys with velocity problems who (coincidentally or not) do this with their back feet; they pivot on the ball of their back feet too early.

I think this may contribute to their velocity problems.


#7

Yes.

I have several 11U guys with velocity problems who (coincidentally or not) do this with their back feet; they pivot on the ball of their back feet too early.

I think this may contribute to their velocity problems.[/quote]
So you say they start off “normal” and pivot the back foot early. Does that mean they pivot the back foot while the front foot is still in the air? I’m still having a hard time picturing this.


#8

This is actually a problem whenever a few of my (rec league) guys just plain throw the ball. I have them stand sideways to the target (which is the basics of the Set position) and throw the ball to me and they can’t get much on the throw. If you watch their feet as they throw from the sideways position, you’ll see them pivot on the ball of their back foot like Ramis is doing in the photo above.

This is my theory as well; that it intereferes with the stretch of the muscles of the lower body and torso and doesn’t let them powerfully pull the shoulders around.

The strange thing is that their hips will be rotating ahead of their shoulders, but there’s something about how they do it (possibly involving what their back foot is doing) that robs them of power.

That suggests that the muscles of the lower body, and not just the muscles of the torso, are critical to the process.


#9

Yes.

I think so.


#10

Just because the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders doesn’t mean they’re doing so explosively. To be honest, I think it is hard to pivot the back foot before the front foot has planted. To do so would mean there’s weight on that back foot and with cleats digging into the ground that sounds like it’s putting extra stress on the ankle, knee and hip joints. But, my guess this is not what’s happening. Rather, I suspect that they’re getting their shoulders ahead of their hips which takes the weight off of the back foot making it possible to pivot it early. Of course, we all know that leading with the shoulders wastes the energy transfering up the kinetic chain and that reduces velocity and puts more stress on the throwing arm.


#11

[quote=“Roger”]Just because the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders doesn’t mean they’re doing so explosively.[/quote]You got that right!!

[quote=“Roger”]To be honest, I think it is hard to pivot the back foot before the front foot has planted.[/quote]Roger. Look at some of the videos you have and you’ll see that, by the time the front foot has landed, the back foot has “rolled over” almost entirely onto the laces. This roll over happens very late though.

Rotating as early as shown in the photo is just plain wrong. It ain’t rocket science. Nothing complicated or technical here, just that there’s no contribution to the throw. It’s that simple.

[quote=“Chris”]The strange thing is that their hips will be rotating ahead of their shoulders, but there’s something about how they do it (possibly involving what their back foot is doing) that robs them of power.[/quote]Yes, hip/shoulder separation is a key component in velo production but it’s existence alone doesn’t mean anything. Nothing. The most important thing is the effectiveness of the kinetic chain. The engagement of one component of the chain MUST happen at the point where the velocity of the preceding component is at it’s maximum. The timing of this transfer is CRUCIAL. If it’s ONE then PAUSE, then TWO, you’ve lost the opportunity to transfer the maximum amount of the built up momentum. You’ve also lost the opportunity to take advantage of the stretch shortening cycle of the involved muscles.

Look at the pros. The “chain” of events isn’t really discernable when viewed at full speed. It’s an extremely smooth, flowing transfer up. It’s why they’re pros. They just got it baby. They take all of these little, nit-picky details we argue about for years and put them together seamlessly. Efficiently. Effectively. That’s the holy grail guys.


#12

[quote=“dm59”][quote=“Roger”]Just because the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders doesn’t mean they’re doing so explosively.[/quote]You got that right!!

[quote=“Roger”]To be honest, I think it is hard to pivot the back foot before the front foot has planted.[/quote]Roger. Look at some of the videos you have and you’ll see that, by the time the front foot has landed, the back foot has “rolled over” almost entirely onto the laces. This roll over happens very late though.

Rotating as early as shown in the photo is just plain wrong. It ain’t rocket science. Nothing complicated or technical here, just that there’s no contribution to the throw. It’s that simple.

[quote=“Chris”]The strange thing is that their hips will be rotating ahead of their shoulders, but there’s something about how they do it (possibly involving what their back foot is doing) that robs them of power.[/quote]Yes, hip/shoulder separation is a key component in velo production but it’s existence alone doesn’t mean anything. Nothing. The most important thing is the effectiveness of the kinetic chain. The engagement of one component of the chain MUST happen at the point where the velocity of the preceding component is at it’s maximum. The timing of this transfer is CRUCIAL. If it’s ONE then PAUSE, then TWO, you’ve lost the opportunity to transfer the maximum amount of the built up momentum. You’ve also lost the opportunity to take advantage of the stretch shortening cycle of the involved muscles.

Look at the pros. The “chain” of events isn’t really discernable when viewed at full speed. It’s an extremely smooth, flowing transfer up. It’s why they’re pros. They just got it baby. They take all of these little, nit-picky details we argue about for years and put them together seamlessly. Efficiently. Effectively. That’s the holy grail guys.[/quote

D.M-- BINGO!!! If the people that read this board read and understand the points you just made things would be alot better for many of them in regards to velocity. Its NOT if one does a certain mechanic its HOW WELL and WHEN they do it! Your dead on with your concept of chaining and how the chain should transfer energy. Wasted time equals wasted energy. Wasted energy equals loss of optimum potential/performance. Its this simple for the sake of this discussion. The frontside/stride leg is internally rotated as it begins to open or the toe starts to point at the target, allowing the pelvis to unlock/open than the backside/pivot leg pushes/DRIVES the frontside into full external rotation. So as the frontside goes into external rotation the backside internally rotates at the same time this internal rotation is what turns the ankle or laces over, as another poster eludes to it is NOT the frontside pulling the backside along ESPECIALLY if one does find credence in the kinetic chain. It all starts FROM the pivot leg foot which is where EVERYTHING begins. The amount of force one can gather accumlilate/produce sets of the outcome as in how much potential energy they can create. Perhaps better said it ENHANCES what else they do. From a biomechanical standpoint it is ALL internal and external rotations for the most part.


#13

Thanks Chin. It’s good to see you’re still hanging around!!! Welcome back man and post more often.