Hip Rotation vs. Push off the rubber


#1

I’ve been reading some other fourms lately and theres been some topics on weather to rotate your hips over push off the rubber. I whould just like to know everyones ideas on this.


#2

It’s not one or the other. It’s both.

Man, I know there was a thread about this in the last day or two. I actually responded to it but I can’t find it. :oops:


#3

I agree.

You push off the rubber to start the stride and you rotate the hips ahead of the shoulders to stretch the muscles of the torso.


#4

Thank You Chris and dm


#5

I agree.

“You push off the rubber to start the stride and you rotate the hips ahead of the shoulders to stretch the muscles of the torso”
’.[/quote]

Chris, YOU may push off the rubber to intitate the stride but most high level pitchers DO NOT push off the rubber to initiate the stride, they push INTO footplant.


#6

It all depends on how you define “push”. There is a push at the beginning but it’s not the result of extension at the knee or angle/foot. It’s more in the core, maybe hip flexors, which gets things started. I have a video of Nolan Ryan from the closed (1st base) side which shows a curious little move just as his knee lift gets to the top (that’s way up there for him). He has this kind of “tilt” of the pelvic area. Combine this with the dropping of the leg and you get forward c.o.g. movement. Gravity then helps matters. If you put a weight at the top of a stick and have it’s c.o.g. precisely over the support, then, theoretically you will have balance. Move it ever so slightly off of that point and you now no longer have stability. The stick will fall over and the ball will move in an arc out and down to the ground. There is a delta x, or horizontal component, to the ball’s circular movement. This would be similar to a pitcher. If he were to move his c.o.g. away from “balance” (or not even get there in the first place), it would continue to move and would accelerate. The magnitude would be a question to answer but it would move. If he were to keep the knee up and not stride, he would fall forward and eventually hit the ground (assuming the leg maintains it’s bend at the knee).

So, the point being, there’s one source of force to move the c.o.g. forward. No push there. But, add some hip flexor contribution and the momentum from the lift leg and you now have some more available force for the stride. Is all of this a “push”. Depends on your definition.

The late “push” is interesting. Some say yes, some no. As I’ve said several times before, the term I’ve heard on other boards, by a very astute student of this game, is “rotational push”. I like it because it’s a little more holistic in nature. It also avoids the possibility of a “herky jerky” push at the very end of the stride, which is not what I believe is beneficial.

So, to sum up, use whatever you can to get the c.o.g. moving forward in the initiation of the stride (hip flexors, gravity, lift leg, not staying “balanced”, etc.) and then a “rotational push” into landing in a smooth and fluid motion.

As usual, another of my long winded posts. :smiley: :oops:


#7

But, Chin, doesn’t there have to be some push off to get the stride started (due to simple physics)? One could argue that by lifting the knee you let gravity start things going. But that alone wouldn’t let you build up any significant horizontal momentum towards the target. When you swing your stride leg out, that builds up horizontal momentum. But, to swing your leg out, you have to be pushing off. Otherwise, swinging your leg forward would have the effect of pushing your body backwards. (Basic physics, right?) It seems to me that there is some amount of push at the start of the stride to get the stride leg going forward. Now, I interpret what you’re saying to mean there is additional push from this point forward into or close to foot strike (or at least until the back foot turns over at which point all pushing ceases). I think pushing off during this part of the delivery is what normally gets debated. Some say the momentum of the stride leg pulls the back foot off the rubber while others say the back foot pushes off of the rubber.

I also think a lot of times this topic of “pushing off” is discussed as if it is a black or white issue - either there is pushing off or there isn’t. I think it needs to be discussed in the context of a pitching delivery timeline. In other words, at what point in the delivery timeline should you push off? What happens if you push off at the wrong time? What happens if you push off at the right time but with the wrong amount of force? Is this something you should be conscious of? Or is it a byproduct of other pieces of the mechanics (e.g. hip thrust and knee lift)?

Many folks will agree that there can be timing problems created by pushing off inappropriately. But most such folks fail to be specific enough in their discussions to properly explain the issues. Personally, I think there is some pushing off that occurs at the start of the stride and through the stride but I think it is more subconsious and not something one actually thinks about or directly tries to do. Otherwise, that’s when timing problems occur. Instead, a pitcher focuses on getting the hips going and maintaining a nice high knee lift. These things require the pitcher to get the stride leg out front quicker and that requires a push off.

Here is a pitching delivery timeline (based partially on the NPA’s timeline) and my take on when I think pushing off occurs:

[code]
first knee foot max hip, shoulders
forward lift strike shoulder square to
movment separation target
|--------|------|---------|----------|-----

   |----------|
       push
       off[/code]

When the push off actually starts would differ from pitcher to pitcher based on how soon they get their hips started. When push off ends would also differ from pitcher to pitcher based on their flexibility and, specifically, on when their back foot rolls over.

Well, there you have it. Rip me a new one if I’m way off base. :?


#8

I agree.

It’s kind of a sideways push that gets the lower body moving toward the target (and ahead of the upper body). Some people describe this as leading with the hip like the photo below…


#9

I agree completely.

I can pick up my glove-side knee and not get moving sideways (ala a flamingo).

To get moving sideways I have to pick up my knee and then push with the side of my foot toward 2B to get my body moving toward the target.


#10

Do you all agree with this? This is what brung this topic up.
http://www.pitching.com/forum/pitching-advice/16577-hip-rotation-not-push-off-key.html


#11

[quote=“dm59”]It all depends on how you define “push”. There is a push at the beginning but it’s not the result of extension at the knee or angle/foot. It’s more in the core, maybe hip flexors, which gets things started. I have a video of Nolan Ryan from the closed (1st base) side which shows a curious little move just as his knee lift gets to the top (that’s way up there for him). He has this kind of “tilt” of the pelvic area. Combine this with the dropping of the leg and you get forward c.o.g. movement. Gravity then helps matters. If you put a weight at the top of a stick and have it’s c.o.g. precisely over the support, then, theoretically you will have balance. Move it ever so slightly off of that point and you now no longer have stability. The stick will fall over and the ball will move in an arc out and down to the ground. There is a delta x, or horizontal component, to the ball’s circular movement. This would be similar to a pitcher. If he were to move his c.o.g. away from “balance” (or not even get there in the first place), it would continue to move and would accelerate. The magnitude would be a question to answer but it would move. If he were to keep the knee up and not stride, he would fall forward and eventually hit the ground (assuming the leg maintains it’s bend at the knee).

So, the point being, there’s one source of force to move the c.o.g. forward. No push there. But, add some hip flexor contribution and the momentum from the lift leg and you now have some more available force for the stride. Is all of this a “push”. Depends on your definition.

The late “push” is interesting. Some say yes, some no. As I’ve said several times before, the term I’ve heard on other boards, by a very astute student of this game, is “rotational push”. I like it because it’s a little more holistic in nature. It also avoids the possibility of a “herky jerky” push at the very end of the stride, which is not what I believe is beneficial.

So, to sum up, use whatever you can to get the c.o.g. moving forward in the initiation of the stride (hip flexors, gravity, lift leg, not staying “balanced”, etc.) and then a “rotational push” into landing in a smooth and fluid motion.

DM, your last paragraph summed it up nicely imo.

As usual, another of my long winded posts. :smiley: :oops:[/quote]


#12

[quote=“Roger”]But, Chin, doesn’t there have to be some push off to get the stride started (due to simple physics)? One could argue that by lifting the knee you let gravity start things going. But that alone wouldn’t let you build up any significant horizontal momentum towards the target. When you swing your stride leg out, that builds up horizontal momentum. But, to swing your leg out, you have to be pushing off. Otherwise, swinging your leg forward would have the effect of pushing your body backwards. (Basic physics, right?) It seems to me that there is some amount of push at the start of the stride to get the stride leg going forward. Now, I interpret what you’re saying to mean there is additional push from this point forward into or close to foot strike (or at least until the back foot turns over at which point all pushing ceases). I think pushing off during this part of the delivery is what normally gets debated. Some say the momentum of the stride leg pulls the back foot off the rubber while others say the back foot pushes off of the rubber.

I also think a lot of times this topic of “pushing off” is discussed as if it is a black or white issue - either there is pushing off or there isn’t. I think it needs to be discussed in the context of a pitching delivery timeline. In other words, at what point in the delivery timeline should you push off? What happens if you push off at the wrong time? What happens if you push off at the right time but with the wrong amount of force? Is this something you should be conscious of? Or is it a byproduct of other pieces of the mechanics (e.g. hip thrust and knee lift)?

Many folks will agree that there can be timing problems created by pushing off inappropriately. But most such folks fail to be specific enough in their discussions to properly explain the issues. Personally, I think there is some pushing off that occurs at the start of the stride and through the stride but I think it is more subconsious and not something one actually thinks about or directly tries to do. Otherwise, that’s when timing problems occur. Instead, a pitcher focuses on getting the hips going and maintaining a nice high knee lift. These things require the pitcher to get the stride leg out front quicker and that requires a push off.

Here is a pitching delivery timeline (based partially on the NPA’s timeline) and my take on when I think pushing off occurs:

[code]
first knee foot max hip, shoulders
forward lift strike shoulder square to
movment separation target
|--------|------|---------|----------|-----

   |----------|
       push
       off[/code]

When the push off actually starts would differ from pitcher to pitcher based on how soon they get their hips started. When push off ends would also differ from pitcher to pitcher based on their flexibility and, specifically, on when their back foot rolls over.

Well, there you have it. Rip me a new one if I’m way off base. :?[/quote]

Roger, Your never way off imo. and who am I to say your off at all? I believe that a rotational push into footplant is what drives the pelvis open. I also believe that on a mound which is raised there is significant gravity to get the body moving. In fact most pitchers sit alittle in order to maintain dynamic balance and stay stacked, in which the back leg may collapse or bend just a little perhaps not all but many. Stand on a mound in the set position with your feet at least as wide as your shoulders and pick up your front foot. Your falling immediately towards the target. As far as the windup goes the same can happen if the pitcher does NOT stall out, which dovetails into another thread that was here not long ago. Again the last paragraph in Dms post sums it up nicely imo. that being said as we all know there are many ways to skin a cat, some just do it better and are more efficient while doing it.