Hip Rotation Question Please advise! 14 year old RH 5'11 1/2

It has been a while since I posted. I’ve been working with my son on the tips and suggestions made from an earlier video. We are kinda stuck on the proper amount of hip drive to the plate and struggling with the landing foot getting in position at foot strike. With more hip drive he is getting down the mound a lot faster and he feels as if he is not going to get his foot down fast enough. With this rush to get his foot down he is opening up his hips completely sometimes over rotating just befor foot strike causing him to be over rotated toward glove side and out of balance when foot comes down. He keeps his hip/shoulder closed until this point and his shoulders stay closed until after foot strike but his hips are open before foot strike.
MY QUESTION IS!
When are the hips suppose to open?
It seems they have to open slightly before foot strike to point the toe toward catcher or slightly closed toward third but when do you power the hips open?

Note: I’m not suggesting that your son should necessarily emulate Roy Oswalt’s personal style. But, watch this clip with a focus on how his hip rotation relates to the timing of his stride and landing, and then watch it again for how his shoulder rotation relates to the timing of his hip rotation.

I think you’ll be able to answer your own questions if you watch this enough times, perhaps also looking at related slo-mo videos of some other pitchers as well, to make sure you see common themes vs. style issues.

here is a great drill on getting rhythm, hip rotation and proper timing.

I found this just a few days ago and it has been very helpful.

the hip rotation happens as soon as the foot lands and never before…in order to get good hip rotation you have to free up your back foot to allow your hips to fully rotate ( you do this by focusing the weight on the back foot to the big toe and ball of the foot as you get close to the stride foot landing ) When you land you brace against the front leg and rotate, as a result your back foot will pivot ending with your shoe “laces facing down”

staying closed into landing is important for leverage. anything that opens up, esp the shoulders, before landing will result in lost power which will reduce velocity.

notice how his back foot turns over after his stride foot lands

Wrong.

Just look at the clip of Ryan you posted. He is clearly rotating AS he lands at foot strike.

are you blind? you can’t see the lines on his pant legs until after he lands, putting the weight on the big toe and ball of the foot makes it look like they are rotating be fore landing but that is only because the weight on the back leg is concentrated on the big toe and ball of the foot. This allows the foot to pivot during hip rotation. The weight on the big toe and ball of the foot frees up the leg, which makes it feel a little bit loose, that is why you see the back knee turn in a bit when their back heel lifts.

have you even hear pitchers talk about when they rotate? I have a video of lincecum who states himself he doesn’t rotate until he lands. Every book I read says rotate the hips against a braced front leg…this gives you leverage and your hips/shoulders can rotate with more force and speed against a braced front leg vs rotating the hips in the air…

Hips have not rotated…weight on the big toe/ball of the foot, knee turned in because of that…hips closed, shoulders closed and everything is ready to explode once he lands. And this is the moment right before landing…

AS he lands if what you mean is once his stride foot hits the ground (like milliseconds after) then yes AS…but never before.

Wrong.

Just look at the clip of Ryan you posted. He is clearly rotating AS he lands at foot strike.[/quote]

101mph is correct. The back foot turns over right at landing and NOT after for most high level pitchers. In fact the post of Nolan Ryan, CLEARLY shows that his ankle is turned over before his front foot is completely down. I"m not sure how this is being missed here. However, there are some pitchers who don’t get that back foot turned over as quickly and they don’t seem to get the seperation that many of the high level pitchers get. This was something my son and I have worked on with him and he’s gotten much better seperation now by working on triple extending that back leg right at landing. If you don’t you lose explosion with the hips turning open…the key I believe is working on keeping the shoulders closed while this is happening.

[qt]http://www.letstalkpitching.com/images/roger_clemens_back_side.mov[/qt]

http://www.letstalkpitching.com/images/roger_clemens_back_side.mov

you can go through this vid frame by frame…tell me his laces are turned over when he lands…nope as you can see after he lands his foot turns over because he fires his glute after he lands…glutes are the main muscle of the hips to get them rotating you have to fire them…why do pitchers have well developed butt muscles?

Clearly a case of action/perception gap. I think it’s you that needs his eyes checked. :roll:

And since you mention Lincecum, he is clearly a guy who shows rotating INTO footplant happening also:

Savy?

Every video you post I see rotation INTO footplant. Try it your self. I’ve seen your clips and you do the same thing (rotating into footplant).

If you can keep your back knee and hip perfectly perpendicular to your target as your foot hits the ground, and THEN ROTATE, I guarantee that would feel incredibly awkward (and probably weak feeling).

The rotation happens as your landing and it is completed as you release the ball. Yes the hips continue to rotate around the front hip joint WHEN the plant foot hits the ground and is on the ground, but the rotation certainly has begun prior to that.

when you stride out with he weight on the ball of the foot (big toe/ball of the foot) your knee turns in as you get out further but you keep your hips closed during this because you can’t let your hips go

quote from SI.com article with lincecum:

As for the “step-over” move NEAR THE END OF HIS STRIDE, Lincecum explains, “That’s from my hips. I’m getting everything toward the target, and my hips want to go. My hips can’t just go and open up. I’m trying to create torque. That’s when everything kind of explodes. My body comes, and [my arm] is just kind of along for the ride.”

Look at this vid, pause it at 30 sec, even 30.5 sec…you can see the hips facing toward the 3rd base side and see how they rotate toward the plate after he lands?

[quote=“tonyjh34”]when you stride out with he weight on the ball of the foot (big toe/ball of the foot) your knee turns in as you get out further but you keep your hips closed during this because you can’t let your hips go

quote from SI.com article with lincecum:

As for the “step-over” move NEAR THE END OF HIS STRIDE, Lincecum explains, “That’s from my hips. I’m getting everything toward the target, and my hips want to go. My hips can’t just go and open up. I’m trying to create torque. That’s when everything kind of explodes. My body comes, and [my arm] is just kind of along for the ride.”

Look at this vid, pause it at 30 sec, even 30.5 sec…you can see the hips facing toward the 3rd base side and see how they rotate toward the plate after he lands?


[/quote]

First you talk about Lincecum, then you post a Verlander clip. :lol:

Verlander has a very linear lower body…but it doesn’t matter. It’s just not as obvious as the Lincecum and the Colon clip I posted. Rotation has already started at the point you mention.

You’re stating that the foot is plated solidly. THEN everything STARTS to rotate. That is not correct.

I don’t care how you or Tim Lincecum words it. Rotation is in progress as you are moving out into footplant. IT’s as plain as day and if you can’t see it…then, well…you can’t see it.

What Lincecum SAYS and what HE DOES are not the same thing. That is what is meant by action/perception gap. A player may THINK he’s is doing something, but in actuality he is doing something else. Happens a lot. :?

or just look at the Clemens clip at top of this page… clearly his hips are rotating before foot plant.

This is hillarious. You guys are forgetting a very important detail that plays into this as well, how athletic a pitcher is. It seems like you guys are debating something that you think has more to do with mechanics than athleticism. Yes some guys stay closed longer in order to generate the 90+ velocity (Lincecum) because of their body size they have to, while others who are larger can generate more leverage easier and still create the same power as Lincecum. The point I’m trying to make is that although both of you are right, in my opinion the millisecond difference between whether the back hip muscle starts to rotate before or after foot plant matters little compared to who’s back hip muscle is firing (athleticism). What matters is how athletic the pitcher is and how well he can stride with balance, plant the foot and have the arm ready in time, and rotate powerfully against and around the front foot so that the arm exlodes out front.

now I’m completely open to being wrong, in fact I believe getting top results in anything happens through trial and error.

now I get hips rotating before the shoulders, but what you guys are saying is they rotate before landing. I’ve had a hard time understanding this cause all I see is a loss of leverage when it comes to the pull phase. The reason why I say that is I’m thinking of the weight shifting from back foot to front and if the back leg and foot are free from the hip rotation before landing, there is really no power coming from the legs at all.

Now if it’s a hip rotation while keeping the back foot parallel to the rubber to keep it from turning over before stride landing then I see how that can work. holding the shoulders and feet closed while having the hips twisted towards the plate and when the stride foot lands and weight shifts to the front and then the back shoulder (throwing shoulder) wants to snap forward and square up with the hips.

did I explain that right and is that what happens…?

[quote=“tonyjh34”]now I’m completely open to being wrong, in fact I believe getting top results in anything happens through trial and error.

now I get hips rotating before the shoulders, but what you guys are saying is they rotate before landing. I’ve had a hard time understanding this cause all I see is a loss of leverage when it comes to the pull phase. The reason why I say that is I’m thinking of the weight shifting from back foot to front and if the back leg and foot are free from the hip rotation before landing, there is really no power coming from the legs at all.

Now if it’s a hip rotation while keeping the back foot parallel to the rubber to keep it from turning over before stride landing then I see how that can work. holding the shoulders and feet closed while having the hips twisted towards the plate and when the stride foot lands and weight shifts to the front and then the back shoulder (throwing shoulder) wants to snap forward and square up with the hips.

did I explain that right and is that what happens…?[/quote]

Here’s how i think of it. When you pitch, you got to get your glove side foot pointed towards home plate. If the hips rotated after foot plant, wouldn’t your glove side foot be parallel to home plate? And wouldn’t that not let the hips open at all?

Just my 2 cents

you notice their back foot how the heel is pointing toward the 1st base side for a righty and 3rd base side for a lefty?

Notice how their hips are not completely rotated yet? they are turned toward home plate, but the back foot keeps the hips from opening up all the way by staying closed (parallel to the rubber, heel facing 1st base for a righty). When you land then you go into the pull phase, the back foot will free up and pivot because of the pull phase (rotation of torso and shoulders).

In the last pic of maddux you can see his heel is on it’s way toward pointing to the sky, his hips would be completely rotated when pointing toward the sky…but in the pic he is in the process of getting into the pull phase.

I think you should stop looking a stills and start looking at video.

Nobody is saying that the hips are completely rotated before footplant. I am saying that the hips START rotating before footplant.

i think i posted vids on this and I look at vids a lot…maybe too much lol

http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1914