High elbow

[quote=“kelvinp”]you dont drop it
you keep it low from the start and tilt your upper body

randy johnson, lincecum and nolan ryan does/did it
100 mph

if you get it up you put strain on your shoulder[/quote] :blah: More “O’Learyisms”. It must be right if he says it.

Since you are coming on like you know it all, I’ll ask you these questions.

  1. When and for how long is the shoulder “up” in Zumaya and Wagner that has so definitively caused all of their problems?

  2. How do you define “up”? This includes timing.

[quote=“kelvinp”]got through your arm motion slow with your elbow above your shoulder you cant feel the tension[/quote]I don’t know what this means. It seems like you’re saying that I should try this one where I keep the elbow “up” throughout the entire acceleration phase. I don’t even think you know what Chris is saying.

[quote]1. When and for how long is the shoulder “up” in Zumaya and Wagner that has so definitively caused all of their problems?

[/quote]

it is up when their gs foot plants and during release

[quote]2. How do you define “up”? This includes timing.
[/quote]

above the shoulder

[quote=“kelvinp”][quote]1. When and for how long is the shoulder “up” in Zumaya and Wagner that has so definitively caused all of their problems?

[/quote]

it is up when their gs foot plants and during release

[quote]2. How do you define “up”? This includes timing.
[/quote]

above the shoulder[/quote]In neither circumstance (Zumaya and Wagner) does the elbow stay above the shoulder from foot plant through to release. Therefore, neither fits with the definition and neither can have their injuries blamed on that issue.

Actually, this confirms that you aren’t really clear on what Chris is saying. Your definition doesn’t jive with what he’s said to me and others on this, and other, boards. He started out, a couple of years ago, with something akin to your definition but, after I and others, pointed out that the elbow drops back down to shoulder height quite early, he modified his statements to say that the problem is having the elbow above shoulder height when shoulder rotation begins.

Morale of the story, be very sure of what you preach as truth when you get that “truth” from others.

look

you read on his site about
Hyperabduction
the inverted L
and the invwerted m

www.chrisoleary.com

how about we get chris to post on this topic

[quote=“kelvinp”]look

you read on his site about
Hyperabduction
the inverted L
and the invwerted m

www.chrisoleary.com[/quote]Been there. Done that, personally, between he and I, on more occasions than anybody here wants to remember. Ain’t goin’ there any more.

[quote=“kelvinp”]how about we get chris to post on this topic[/quote]He’s been there and done that. None of what he has written has ever convinced me of what he’s claiming. I’ve asked him several times for better evidence on things and none of his responses have been satisfactory, IMO. He even threw at me a quote from an ortho person about his “hyperabduction” ideas. This was supposed to definitively support his contentions but, when I suggested that this ortho is not getting the full picture and that I would appreciate him contacting me, I got no response.

My issue is that you are giving advice from Chris’ teachings that very few people endorse. You are using examples of pitchers who supposedly prove your (or Chris’) points but those examples do not exhibit the behaviors you’re describing.

My advice to you was, and still is, to make sure you understand what you’re advocating. That was not the case when it came to Chris’ “hyperabduction” theories, nor was it the case regarding Nolan Ryan and Tim Lincecum’s glove side action. Study more and also more widely to understand better, then come back and “debate” the issues rather than take the word from one source and spread it as “gospel”.

well what do you believe
what theories do you believe

they all make sense
can you give me another explaination
why wagner, zumaya and others are injured

i use chrisoleary and i throw with no pain in my arm
my accuracy is good and i sacrafice no velocity

[quote]i use chrisoleary and i throw with no pain in my arm
my accuracy is good and i sacrafice no velocity[/quote]

So you like rub him on your arm like Ben G a y? Are you saying that he’s made you the pitcher you are? How? How old are you? What makes you think Chris’ suggestions have made you better/worse/helped/hurt? How would you quantify that? Do you realize that he hasn’t coached more than a little league team? Yes he has had some professionals listen…ok…I have ex-major leaguers listen to me…so what? Chris is an ex-insurance analyst who is an excellent marketeer…It is not surprising that he is able to convince children he is right. The problem, as DM has pointed out is that he uses subjective information to make absolute statements…this is not science…an example is his complete and firm belief that Mark Priors mechanics caused his injury…no matter how much the facts…facts now, hard facts right in front, for all to see, indicate a completely different scenario. When confronted with those facts he’s said that “he doesn’t buy it”…huh? So his “theory” trumps facts. That is the problem…now no one can stop you from spewing Chris-isms but you better expect to be challenged and asked to present ANY evidence you have to support it…If Zumaya or Wagner threw like Maddux…chances are they wouldn’t be in the bigs…they throw like them and Greg like Greg, O’Leary thinks everyone should “copy” mechanics…It doesn’t translate. The fact that I know MLB players and ex-players allows me to say…in my experience you’ll not find one who made the bigs by “copying” someone elses mechanics…of course I wouldn’t try to get children to drag other children with mom and dads money to my site for 3 layers of payment for analysis either.
As to what I believe…I believe that pitching is an art, as such people each do it slightly different as they all have different bodies, there are certain aspects that are universal, timing, posture, momentum…but each person accesses these things in a different way. It is the job of a pitching coach to attempt to assist a pitcher get to the most efficient delivery given his body and the way in which his body throws the ball…If Maddux threw like Clemons he may in fact have ripped his rotor cuff…Clemons like Maddux…and no Rocket…this continual crud that the arm being in spot x at second x causes injury has no basis in fact, Chris has never presented evidence of this other than after the fact and neither can you…it doesn’t exist…easy to say Zumaya, Prior and Wagner blah blah blah…but B Wagner has been in the league and on top of the heap much longer than the major league average…When Lincecum gets hurt I’m sure he’ll be the replacement poster child…How stupid is it to say anything they do mechanically is “bad” or injurious…They made it to the top of the heap…what percentage of anyone makes it there…defies imagination at the arrogence to have someone who hasn’t even coached at the jr high level “Knows better” please… this is not based in anything but narcisisstic self-indulgance…It’s like Marshall thinking he is the reason the sinker is king in mlb now…from his perspective only.

if zumaya and wagner threw like mad dog they could be starters
maddox used to could throw mid nintys

chris doesn’t want you to copy mechanics
he wants you to follow principles

it shows you what hyperabductio is so you would know not to do it
it shows the inverted L so you would know not to do it
it show to inverted w so you would know not to do it
frame by frame analysis of major league pitchers
this sets an example of what good mechanics are

look at randy johnson, the rocket, mad dog

they all are good pitchers and are examples of every thing on chris’s site

no inverted L, no inverted W and no hyperabduction

does it make sense now

Hows that kool-aid?

[quote]if zumaya and wagner threw like mad dog they could be starters
maddox used to could throw mid nintys [/quote]

And how do you prove this? You may want to print that and put it in your pocket and look at it ten years from now and get a chuckle.

Give me a break! I’ve watched Greg since his rookie year…where were you in 86? I was watching this young kid…looked like Little Timmy from Lassie…k’ing people left and right…was he throwing “mid-90’s?” nope…he did though hit 91 last year on TV…so what, the percentage of his pitches like 90-5% are under 85…unless you have the knowledge/skill/preparation/intuition of Greg that speed won’t get you out of a decent D-3 program…what an ignorant statement…BILLY WAGNER is still one the greatest of his type of pitcher ever to suit up…by Greg’s profile he’d get rocked as a closer…Does the millions and millions that Wagner has made seem less attractive because he closes?..Greg has traditionally gotten hit…if he was hit in the early innings…why? Well the sinker wasn’t dropping until he got to a certain level of not fatigue but say usage…it takes him an inning or two to get it working…
So what-ever you just throw like who-ever you wish or don’t or what-ever you’ve been instructed…don’t do those things and good for ya…I hope you have a nice and lengthy career.

What makes sense is that you really haven’t a clue on how to train or prepare a pitcher and have fully fallen for what Chris expouses…I’ll tell you what does make sense…no pitching coach that I’ve ever met…this includes D-1 and MLB, coaches players in that way…“here, here is a picture of pitcher x and he is how you should do it”. Heck yes Greg was/is fabulous, Rocket was Rocket, Randy himself…Don’t you realize with the exception of Greg who has only missed one start up until last year…both Randy and Rocket have suffered injuries? BUT THEY THROW 100 mph or close to it…make any small mistake and it is magnifyed “Great mechanics or not”.
Oh yeah it’s soooo simple, just don’t do all that stuff and you are a big leaguer.
You are going to have to get a little better than running out your little condenscending little “does that make sense” smack…how bout some real discussion…facts not someone elses theorys that have never been proven even by the person who spouts it.

i am a pitcher and i dont plan on training others
i havent fallen for chris’s ideas
if anybody else’s ideas make more sense i will go with them

chris’s site just shows you what good mechanics are and how to prevent injury
he doesnt sayyou have to pitch exactly like lincecum or nolan ryan

johnson and rocket had injurys that didn’t affect their career
greg maddux never throw over 95 but is still in the top 15 in wins alltime

chris’s site is not to make you a big leaguer
it to help you be a better pitcher and prevent injury

your are not getting the point

[quote=“kelvinp”]if zumaya and wagner threw like mad dog they could be starters
maddox used to could throw mid nintys[/quote]You’re sure about that now, are you? How do you know that?

[quote=“kelvinp”]it shows you what hyperabductio is so you would know not to do it
it shows the inverted L so you would know not to do it
it show to inverted w so you would know not to do it[/quote]Sorry, it does none of the above!! It espouses his THEORIES!!! No facts. THEORIES!!

[quote=“kelvinp”]frame by frame analysis of major league pitchers[/quote]Did you do as I suggested and looked at them yourself, for what I described? Do it. I gave you a detailed description of things. I pointed out that you missed the boat on the glove side issue and that the elbow drops down early. Did you check it out? I doubt it. You didn’t even address my explanations. You just came back with “well, Chris says so”.

[quote=“kelvinp”]this sets an example of what good mechanics are[/quote]…according to Dr. Chris. Dick Mills, Paul Nyman, Mike Marshall, etc. write about what they think is “good mechanics”. Well, since it’s in writing and it “makes sense” must make it correct. Do you agree with all of them? Give me a break!

[quote=“kelvinp”]look at randy johnson, the rocket, mad dog

they all are good pitchers and are examples of every thing on chris’s site

no inverted L, no inverted W and no hyperabduction[/quote]So what? Means nothing. Address my points I made. Stop regurgitating Chris’ writings.

[quote=“kelvinp”]does it make sense now[/quote]No, it does not!!! Just because Chris writes about something doesn’t make it right.

Chris has identified patterns or trends that he considers to be indicators of possible injury. Well, patterns and trends are nothing more than a basis for the formation of theories. They are not proof of anything. I commend Chris for pursuing his theories but I don’t like the way he sells his theories as fact.

The point is that it is easy to say…throw like pitcher x and you won’t be hurt…why? Well because they weren’t? It’s like saying “be black or you won’t hit more than 600 home runs”…it’s like seeing a polar bear swimming and say hes endangered by global warming…or rotten meat makes flys by just being rotten…it ain’t the real way things are, it is objectionable that you just don’t get it and want to inflict this “unknowledge” upon others as if it was fact…which it isn’t.
I get the point, very clearly.

[quote]chris’s site is not to make you a big leaguer
it to help you be a better pitcher and prevent injury [/quote]

Chris’ site is for Chris to make money…and God bless him if he does

Now prove he’s prevented even one injury, prove he’s made one kid quantifiably better. How can this even be proven…it can only be because someone says so…no way to prove this…it is marketing tripe…
Look, I’ve known Chris for a couple of years, I’ve always liked him as a person, always believed he wants to help, but I’ve also been to his site…there is no drill work to keep your arm prepared, there is nothing except him saying don’t make this or that mechanical move or you’ll end up like “Poor Mark Prior”. And now he offers 3 tiers of analysis…
How does this do any of the things you proport…or not?

Oh? then why are we having this discussion? I’m having it with you because you make or reflect Chris’ absolute statements as fact to guys who are trying to learn about the art…how is that not training?

[quote]You’re sure about that now, are you? How do you know that?
[/quote]
tes they would be more consistant and injury free

yes they are theories but they makes sense
show me a pitcher that does the inverted L, inverted W or hyperabduction that is not injured

the elbow doesnt have to drow down it just doesnt have to get above shoulder height tilt to get your arm up and prevent injury

it might not be right nut no one else can explain why pitchers get injured
if you wrote it it would make sense

i never said it was right but it does make alotta sense

and if chris is not right who is

“if chris is not right who is?”

LOL. Twice.

kelvinp,

There are many more good and deeply knowledgeable pitching coaches than the one mentioned in the paragraph below, but Chris O’Leary is not one of them, (in my opinion–added for political correctness).

If you want to learn how to fly, study eagles. If you want to learn about flies, study cr*p.

Excerpt from Nolan Ryan’s Baseball Hall of Fame induction speech, July 25, 1999

“When I went to the Texas Rangers as a free agent, I went with the intent to stay one year and finish my career there with the Rangers. And I stayed five. And the reason I stayed five is because of the Texas Rangers. I never enjoyed an organization more. While I was there I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House. Tom and I are of the same age and Tom is a coach that is always on the cutting edge. And I really enjoyed our association together and he would always come up with new training techniques that we would try and see how they would work in to my routine. Because of our friendship and Tom pushing me, I think I got in the best shape of my life during the years that I was with the Rangers. And Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together. And that last year you weren’t there I can really say, buddy, I missed you. Thank you for being here today.” –Nolan Ryan

lol@kelvinp. Keeps beating a dead horse. I agree with some of Chris O’leary’s theories and ideas, especially about hitting. Frankly he seems like a nice enough guy too, but you can’t just say everything he does is right because pitching isn’t a science, if it was you’d see all the big leaguers with mechanics that are carbon copies of one another.

im not saying its right
im saying it makes perfect sense

they all have their little tweaks to their mechanics but the good ones dont hyperabduct and dont make an invertedL or W

im not saying its right
im saying it makes perfect sense

they all have their little tweaks to their mechanics but the good ones dont hyperabduct and dont make an invertedL or W[/quote] I suggest you read up more on the topic before you go on saying Chris O’leary is a genius. Dictionary.com Unabridged- Ignorance ig·no·rance
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

im notsayiing he is right
im not saying he is a genius
im not even sayingi like him
but his “theories make sense”

you look at injury pitchers in the mlb
most of them do something wrong that is on chris’s site

if you unignorant people would take time and read his site
you would see what im talking about

besides he is about the only one doing it
others dont even bother

:shock: :lol: