-Gyroball-


#1

Does anyone have any more info on the gyroball? I happen to think that depending on the release point, the movement on the ball will change. I think this may be why people have described it as a hard sinker, or a hard slider or screwball. I think that all of this has to do with the release points and amount of spin on the ball on the way to the plate. Depending on the point released and the reveloutions of spin is what I think determines the path of the gyroball even though that the spin is in the same direction each time.

Secondly here are some interesting K-Ball clips and my home page if you are interested. Tell me what you think of my 2 average K-Ball clips the first at 51mph and the second at 56mph. Please post any news on the gyroball here! As far as the K-Ball these are 2 avg ones. nothing special. With a new game ball I can get a 2 foot drop almost every time. Anyways enjoy!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4jQyHY_fk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuITJhpZwE0

http://hometown.aol.com/keenanb13/index.html

http://www.robneyer.com/book_04_gyroball.html


#2

The gyroball is a complex pitch. I believe many think that they throw it like a football. I wouldn’t reccomend it seeing how a lot of Japanese pitchers throw it and many have injuries. But if that pitcher the Red Sox might be getting signs, and he throws that pitch he has, I think it’s the gryoball, he will dominate US hitters at first. Because of the ammount of movement he has and overal change of speeds he’ll be able to use.


#3

[color=blue]
Yes I totally agree. Like how Wakefield did with the K-Ball. Untill the hitters adjust and see it a few times. His name is Matsuzaka I believe. And here is a clip of him throwing the “gyroball” I think he will do great his first year and as you can see his movement with the pitch.[/color]


#4

Here is a great video of the spin that is supposed to be on the gyroball. This is the pitcher that the Redsox are gettting. His name is Daisuke Matsuzaka. I think they bid like $50 million on him over the Yankees. Guess this is payback for taking Johnny Damon away from the Redsox last year.


#5

For once, I feel my long post may be worth reading through, atleast most of the way though… lol

Alright, the first video posted is more than likely not a gyroball.

His hand is on top of the ball at release, more than likely a good two-seam fastball. It is totally different movement to the other video, as well as a few others I have seen around the net.

Since we’re talking about the gyro again, I will repost my thoughts

Firstly:

Arm care via pitch count really hasn’t traveled across the Pacific yet, or they’re ignoring it…

A Japanese pitcher pitches his game, and then the next day is throwing a bullpen. They will throw thousands of more pitches in a season. This would possibly be the reason for arm problems.

Saw in popular mechanics they had a piece on the gyro.
Since I have a lot of respect for the magazine’s information, it’s definately worth posting:

Large, and good article on the gyro, and Mr. Matsuzaka.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4201430.html

I think this is possibly the most important piece of info for the gyro:
Quote:

“As I describe in the attached file,” he says, “some sorts of slider or cut [fast]balls are considered as one variation of the gyroball. In that sense, many pitchers are actually pitching it.”

Also it says Jeffrey Niezer, who Will Carroll (biggest hype creater for gyro in my honest opinion, also an arm health expert) apparently taught the gyro to no longer throws it in College, and says it so resembles a slider he wasn’t really worried about it.

The attached file (from quoted paragraph) is here: http://media.popularmechanics.com/documents/gyroballvariation.pdf
Great explanation of the physics in layman’s terms.

Short piece that was published in A recent issue (maybe the current)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/sports/4199557.html

Overall I feel somewhat disappointed from the hype generated by the gyroball, without the substance to necessarily back it up.
I think it appears to be this amazing pitch for lack of information. Basically it caries an aurora around it because people see something that looks good, and do not understand it really.

As the bulk of info is in Japanese, and no one has sat down to translate it per say. And stuff would get lost in translation anyway further complicating matters.

Is the gyroball still an individual pitch- I think so, the velocity it is thrown at and the break, aren’t really seen from other pitches.
At 90+ miles per hour the only breaking balls like that would be a slider and cutter. The cutter has little movement period. The slider seems to have less and less movement with added velocity for most pitchers. The gyro definately has some real break at high speed if the tape I have seen is really the gyroball, or else an extremely gifted breaker that no one else replicates.


#6

Nice post, I like the links. The second link I have seen, the first I haven’t. This link here: http://media.popularmechanics.com/documents/gyroballvariation.pdf [color=blue]That you posted, kind of backs up what I said about how the gyroball will react with different release points. Although the 3rd diagram in the link I copied from your article above, I am not sure that it could rise with the amount of force any pitcher could throw. It might be considered defing gravity. I once read in a article “wish I could find it” that you cannot get a ball to rise, only the rising that a batter sees can be considered as an illusion. And as for me I have thrown a couple K-Balls in the wind that have seemed to catch the wind and rise, but clearly they didn’t rise, the wind caught the pitch and slowed it down immensley and then it dropped. But as for the first two diagrams I think they are possible.
Great post with some interesting facts. I enjoyed reading all of it.[/color]


#7

Agree, no pitch could rise from being thrown on a downward plane.

I cannot recall the number but it would require somewhere around a few thousand rpm’s I believe to get a ball to rise. And this wrist and arm are totally incabable of doing this.

Knock on wood though.

Scientist didn’t believe you could make a ball curve though.

They had to set two sticks in the ground in the 40’s and film it with a guy throwing the ball around both to get any proof the ball curved, they called it an illusion as well.


#8

[i][color=blue]I agree you have some pretty interesting facts. I like what you have brought to the table. You got me thinking. You know I am beginning to think that the gyro ball is no more than a variant of the slider. With a different release point.

 For example you can grip a curve the same and throw it 2 different was over the top for a 12-6 break or 3/4 for a 1-7, 1-8 break. I'm trying to say that I don't think that this pitch should be considered a new pitch or called the "gyroball" unless we know for sure and can distinguish the movement scientifically and physically with our own eyes. This could just very well be a slider released differently/ thus a different release point. 

 You can by using any one grip get many results by changing finger pressure, release points, and amount of spin. Also by sliding your fingers to different parts of the ball. Not enough to change the type of pitch.[/color][/i]

#9

Although the video that you said might not be a gyroball could be a gyroball with lift force. But like I said, whose to say this pitch is real. After all it is the loch ness of baseball. No one except the few here and ones who keep up with baseball have heard of it. I think with a computer it wouldn’t be as hard to create a pitch. In my book there is no such thing “yet” as the gyroball. Even if this pitch was prooved real, I wouldn’t put forth the effort to even try and learn this pitch.

And to the people who say it is a waste of time to learn the K-Ball, If it takes you more than 2 months to develope an average K-Ball you have wasted your time because it’s not that hard of a pitch to get the hang of. You will pick up things along the way to help make it better but within the 1st two months you should be able to get it at 1-3 rotations. It is a fantastic pitch to learn and is easy on your arm as far as stress. I am in highschool and I throw mine at around 55-60mph and I get a killer 2 foot drop almost every time. Although I have been throwing it since I was 12. I advise the K-Ball at a young age simply becasue it is an alternative to a curveball and if thrown well at a young age may be carried on at a older age with better skill.


#10

I said this last time that we had this discussion, seems like I ought to repeat it, There is nothing “New” in baseball, If you can find old Satchel Page pitching clips you’ll see some breaking movements that make this thing look like a fastball. Gaylord Perry also, but his stuff had saliva, and whatever else he could get on it.
I think that the research CF and WS are doing is great. Speaks to a desire and love of the game. Keep it up, if you don’t make it as pitchers you may as a coach or scout or maybe even Team President…Hopefully of the Cubs, cause, well they need it.


#11

Anything for chicago. :smiley: If not a pitcher, I would love to coach,but I am only 17. Me personally, I love to analyze everything in order to understand how certain things work. If you can generate a better understanding of how a pitch or anything gets it’s results you are more able to replicate it everytime. As for the gyroball I’ve seen on the net, and my K-Ball at home, I have took video clips and watched them in slo-mo analyzing every little detail it takes to get a certain result. I would recommend that if you are having trouble with your mechanics or a pitch or anything else, videotape it if you get the chance and go through it slow watching for any mistakes. You will be happy with your results.

 As for the "gyroball", Here is a great article with some natural responses from American players and Japanese players.                
  Also, as for the gyroball, I don't think that it is necessary to pronate your wrist at the end of the pitch to get the gyroball to break. I think that just incorporates what the Japanese call "Double Spin Mechanics" which is supposed to take less arm stress. If you watch Daisuke Matsuzaka pitch he pronates on all of his pitches. Not just this supposed gyroball. So I think part of Japanese pitching was incorporated into this pitch that might be able to be omitted. I will test no pronation at the end of this pitch and see what kind of results. Thus that is how new pitches are invented, experimentation. So the next time you are throwing and you are throwing a pitch wrong, you could be throwing a new pitch correctly.

#12

Here is a paragraph on “Double Spin Mechanics” which I will post the link to at the bottom. “DSM” as I will reffer to it as, might be a good thing for baseball. I"ve heard both sides of the story, it is good ect. ect. And it is bad. But you have to think is that we were all told that the screwball was bad for you. But this is throw almost 100% exactly like the screwball. The only thing different that I really see is that you are what I like to say is releasing the ball before the pronation occurs. You are still following the same motions and mmovements as the screwball so why is this pitch any safer?

 Here is the paragraph from the article, link below.

Double-spin mechanics are almost unknown in America, but slowly they’re reaching these shores. The reason is not the scientific evidence; that remains to be translated and fewer than ten copies of the book have been brought to America. Instead, it is the unintended effect of the new mechanics that is getting the attention. That effect is the gyroball.

In Saving The Pitcher, I state that I don’t believe in the “curveball” as a distinct pitch. All breaking balls are simply the effect of putting some form of spin on the baseball that causes the ball to move off the normal curvilinear path. Secondarily, the spin should be controllable, but that’s not always the case. There probably aren’t ten pitchers in the major leagues that could explain the Magnus force, but most of them have explosive breaking balls.

The gyroball is simply another variation of breaking ball. The same could be said for the slider, the cutter, and even the screwball. Unlike the other pitches, the gyroball does not have a multiplanar path. As the ball leaves the hand of the pitcher throwing a gyro – or as the Japanese call it, the “shooto” – the ball comes off the middle finger with what appears to the batter as a pure counterclockwise spin. There is no snap of the wrist; it is a true “set it and forget it” pitch. The spin is an apparent rifle-like spin that keeps the ball true until it takes a severe, late left turn from a right-handed pitcher.

Let me say that again: the ball comes at the hitter looking like a hanging curve and then takes a hard, flat turn away from a right-handed batter.

www.robneyer.com/book_04_gyroball.html


#13

I think this video may be a better representation of what the gyro really is:


#14

Gyroball!


#15

It’s just supposed to move like a cutter, but with more break. A true gyro should be a one plane pitch, moving from 9 to 3. The other thing that makes it unique is that it spins on its side. So let’s call it between a Cutter and a Slider.


#16

Yeah, like I said a tight slider, that would pretty much be the same thing. Also you mean 3-9 for a RH’ed pitcher not 9-3. That would be a reverse slider, or a largly pronated 2-Seamer. I think the break as do many other pitches depend on the release point. That as well as rotation,how tight the spin is,and the release points determine the pitches path. Imagine if Suzaka stayed on top of the ball in your video, and if you notice the little red circle in the middle of the ball, if he would have released the ball so that the circle was pointing more downwards he would have gotten a totally different break, probably a really fast spiltter type. The Magnus effect is a special force, and if you understand how it works, you may use it to your fullest advantage.


#17

By the way, a tight slider would be more than a cutter, but less than a regular sweeping slider. So if that was the case,and this is how it broke, then what is the use of the “gyroball”? If you can produce the same results without the added difficulty than why throw a pitch with “bullet” like spin that is above hard to perfect to get the same results as a tight slider. I think that the “gyroball” was and invented pitch by the Japanese to cut down on “drag/air resistance” and increase velocity by reducing friction. I think it’s true break is like a very speedy and tight “slurve” down and away from a RH batter. More of a down movement than right. I’d say 60% down 40% away. Slurve or slider like movement are both generally the same direction just the slurve is more down, but at high speeds is less hanging. Look at some of the gyroball videos. Alot of them look like a hanging curve ball and followed by a very sharp slider like movement.

And the pronation with the “gyro” is not necessary for the break. This was incorporated with the pitch using Double Spin Mechanics, commonly used by many Japanese pitchers. It is believed that Double Spin Mechanics reduce arm stress. Thats all the pronation is for, reducing arm stress not rotation. You can still throw the gyro without pronation.


#18

[quote]Yeah, like I said a tight slider, that would pretty much be the same thing. Also you mean 3-9 for a RH’ed pitcher not 9-3.

Actually the clock is supposed to be from the batter’s point of view, so a slurvy breaking ball would be called 11 to 5, not 1 to 7. So a gyro is indeed 9 to 3.[/quote]


#19

I messed up that last post

Actually the clock is supposed to be from the batter’s point of view, so a slurvy breaking ball would be called 11 to 5, not 1 to 7. So a gyro is indeed 9 to 3.


#20

You’re the first I’ve ever heard say that in referance to the break of a ball on a clock it is from the batters view. I guess there’s a 1st time for everything. But I understand what you are saying anyways. But more so the break is relative to that of a tight slider, more than that of a cutter but less than a regular Randy Johnson slider, in between. But the "gyroball starts as a hanging curve even with it’s speed and then takes of as a very sharp late slider.[/quote]