Anyone who’s interested in old school pitchers should check out the frame by frame analysis of Dizzy Dean mechanics that I just completed…
His mechanics in the clip look great to me, and it’s amazing to think how many more wins he would have had if he hadn’t broken his toe.
Looks like a warmup lob and as such pretty meaningless. Very safe mechanics since the ball probably didn’t go over 75mph.
I have looked at other clips of him (e.g. HOF web site) and his mechanics and timing are consistent across them.
Then one isn’t surprised that the old timers were able to throw as many innings as they did.
CADad. Interesting points!!
World of difference between the effort level from the game clips and the obvious lobs. Look at the third baseman preparing to take a grounder from first while Dean is throwing the warm up pitch in your frame by frame. Why would you “analyze” a warm up pitch?
I will say his mechanics are very consistent when he lobs the ball. Very different from the game mechanics and effort though.
[quote=“CADad”]World of difference between the effort level from the game clips and the obvious lobs. Look at the third baseman preparing to take a grounder from first while Dean is throwing the warm up pitch in your frame by frame. Why would you “analyze” a warm up pitch?
I will say his mechanics are very consistent when he lobs the ball. Very different from the game mechanics and effort though.[/quote]
The level of effort is different, but the mechanics and timing are the same.
If you keep saying it enough will that make it true?
You just analyzed a warm up toss and didn’t realize it. Now you are sticking to your guns to try and avoid admitting to your error. Same old, same old.
The difference in the way his right shoulder drives thru when he actually pitches is quite different.
The tempo is of course is completely different requiring different timing.
No, I did (I noticed which way the 3B is facing) but don’t think it matters. Also, this is the only clip of him that I found.
He’s also still probably throwing the ball at least 80MPH in the clip.
What exactly are you referring to?
[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]The level of effort is different, but the mechanics and timing are the same.[/quote]Gotta disagree with you here Chris. CADad’s right on again.
I give up. You realized it was a warm up pitch and you analyzed a warm up pitch! Then you praised the mechanics. If you had ever really pitched you’d understand the difference between lobbing the ball and throwing a pitch, and yes he was lobbing the ball not throwing a serious warm up pitch at anything near full velocity, whatever that may have been for him.
When most people lob the ball they stay more upright and their shoulder stops and doesn’t then turn through as hard or as much because they don’t need to decelerate the arm as much. Sometimes they’ll pull the shoulder around afterwards in an unconscious attempt to mimic their normal mechanics. They also will mimic their mechanics by pulling the post leg hip around afterwards but it isn’t like throwing a pitch where their momentum pulls the hip around. That is where the timing is necessarily so different.
You might also notice that he threw from a higher arm slot when he was actually pitching. It is pretty normal for pitchers and other players to drop their arm slot a bit when they are just lobbing the ball. It is the most obvious in outfielders because of the normally almost straight overhand slot needed to keep the ball from fading, especially when Vlad lobs one in from the outfield, and yes his lobs are probably 80+.
Just another reason why it makes absolutely no sense to analyze a softly thrown warm up pitch.
c’mon … even if he is warming up … there’s stilll something you can learn from watching how a guy warms up.
andrew,
You are right. You can learn what is done differently between a warm up toss and a real pitch. However, that isn’t going to happen when someone puts something out and talks about the great mechanics without noting that it was a warmup toss. Please note that I’m not saying a warmup pitch. That was nothing more than a toss.
Here’s what you can learn:
The degree of external rotation of his pitching arm (e.g. 80 to 90 degrees) that is visible in frame 34 indicates that he clearly was NOT lobbing the ball.
I still think pointing out that a pitcher strides sideways is useless analysis. I know 6 year olds that can do this, and clearly every effective pitcher does this…except maybe Marshall’s guys.
And I’m pretty sure that NO pitcher ever thinks about tilting his shoulders to raise his release point. While I think you can change arm slot fairly easily, it is not because the pitcher is saying, “Hey, I’m gonna tilt my shoulders more now so I can raise my release point.” Chris, when you compare guys like Tom Glavine (higher arm slot), and Dizzy Dean (sidearm slot), they are not different because they thought to tilt their shoulders differently. They just throw.
[quote=“andrew.ra.”]c’mon … even if he is warming up … there’s stilll something you can learn from watching how a guy warms up.[/quote]Not really. Too many differences from the real thing.
CADad explained it well.
First, there have been, and still are, many pitchers who throw from multiple arm slots during the course of a game. That means that some people do actively think about arm slot (even if they don’t necessarily think about it as tilting the shoulders).
Second, I make the point about shoulder tilt driving arm slot because many people (e.g. “guru” John Bagnozzi) think that the thing that determines arm slot is how high the elbow is above the shoulders. That leads them to tell people to do things with their PAS elbow (e.g. get the PAS elbow above the level of the shoulders) that will not change their arm slot and that will increase their risk of injury.
[quote=“palo20”]And I’m pretty sure that NO pitcher ever thinks about tilting his shoulders to raise his release point. While I think you can change arm slot fairly easily, it is not because the pitcher is saying, “Hey, I’m gonna tilt my shoulders more now so I can raise my release point.” Chris, when you compare guys like Tom Glavine (higher arm slot), and Dizzy Dean (sidearm slot), they are not different because they thought to tilt their shoulders differently. They just throw.[/quote]I agree palo20. I’ll add though that the desire to throw with a higher arm slot may just cause them to lean because that’s the only way the body can do it effectively. The body knows what to do to create the desired result.
My son lobs the ball with full external rotation and I throw as hard as I can with 45 degrees at most. Degree of external rotation is somewhat related to effort but mostly to flexibility.
Keep trying.
[quote]First, there have been, and still are, many pitchers who throw from multiple arm slots during the course of a game. That means that some people do actively think about arm slot (even if they don’t necessarily think about it as tilting the shoulders).
Second, I make the point about shoulder tilt driving arm slot because many people (e.g. “guru” John Bagnozzi) think that the thing that determines arm slot is how high the elbow is above the shoulders. [/quote]
Yes, there are many pitchers who change up the arm slot to give a different look. I do think that there is a slot that is most effective for each pitcher though. I’m not so sure that it’s as cut and dry genetically as House would claim, as people like Paul Nyman seem to be proving that they can makes certain guys’ arm action better.
When you talk about Bagonzzi saying that “how high the elbow is above the shoulders” determines arm slot, are you disagreeing with him. It would seem that he means that the relationship of the elbow to the throwing shoulder determines arm slot. You’ve already proved that most guys do throw with their elbows below both shoulders.