Forearm parallel with ground

when you watch many pitchers in slow motion when they rotate their chest and its facing the catcher, their arm comes around the the arm is extremely in external rotation with the forearm parallel to the ground. is this something that happens automatically or something you need to try to do?

Try bending your arm back that far (lightly) right now. You can’t do it.

yes you can. i’m 46 yrs old and can still lthrow my throwing arm back to horizontal or better. if you don’t get it naturally i think you need to stretch enough to develop it. it can be done doing a contract release stretching method. i think this is a requirement to throw hard.

really? I can only get mine back to about 45 degrees (or 135) from the horizontal by just using my shoulder muscles (not pressing with the other arm).

Edit: I meant bending it back without pushing on it. What do you mean? Should there be a difference? When I do rotate it back, my anterior deltoid ‘burns’ or whatever you want to call it like it is flexing.

Edit 2: When I throw, my arm does lay back flat.

Dusty,

Do you have GIRD?

This happens naturally and is the EFFECT of throwing hard (not the CAUSE of throwing hard).

Stretching to improve your ability to do this will loosen up your shoulder joint and increase your likelihood of having shoulder problems.

O’leary do you have any medical facts on this? You must do streaching to prevent injury. You must have a streaching regiment to keep flexibility the same on both sides. And if you throw rite and throw with proper arm action the fore arm will be it the proper position.

[quote=“tmcgregor”]You must have a streaching regiment to keep flexibility the same on both sides.[/quote]tmcgregor
Do you have any medical facts on this? I’ve read some to the contrary. The shoulder joint is the loosest one in the entire body. Laxity is typically more of an issue than tightness, or so I’m told.

This is why you do what Dr. Jobes shoulder workout along with the streaching regiment. So is what people are saying is do not streach just get on the mound and throw? DR. JOBES WORKOUT

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1322.cfm

Current research shows that more often than not stretching INCREASES the risk of injury rather than decreasing the risk of injury. For one thing, that is because stretching can increase the laxity of joints.

[quote=“tmcgregor”]This is why you do what Dr. Jobes shoulder workout along with the streaching regiment. So is what people are saying is do not streach just get on the mound and throw? DR. JOBES WORKOUT

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1322.cfm
[/quote]

The Jobe exercises are a good way of strengthening (conditioning) the muscles of the rotator cuff.

Before throwing, you should gradually warm up the arm by progressive long toss. Stretching doesn’t accomplish this as well and can have negative consequences.

Here is a verbatim excerpt from Mike Marshall’s Q&A wherein he not only takes credit for inventing the protocols that Jobe’s exercise program is derived from but MM also tells us that Jobe’s program is not actually good enough for pitchers and that Jobe’s protocols deserve no credit for any reduction in rotator cuff injuries. Nevertheless, Marshall likes him, and applauds his “nice try”. Woof!

"Before Dr. Jobe watched me do my wrist weight exercises, which included my Pronation Swings and Shakedowns, he did not have an exercise program for baseball pitchers. Because he felt that, with thirty pound wrist weights and sixteen pound iron balls, my training program was far too intense for baseball pitchers, he recommended two pound weights will exercises that were clinical, not specific to the baseball pitching motion. I would not credit the ‘Jobe exercises’ with any reduction in rotator cuff injuries.

 Nevertheless, I like Frank Jobe.   He is a good man.   He tries very hard to help baseball pitchers.   He deserves all the credit in the world for figuring out that drilling holes in bones and threading the tendon of a basically non-functional muscle through those holes would perfectly repair a serious baseball pitching injury.   I applaud him.   I respect him.

 I also heard the conversation about Tom Brady's football throwing fundamentals.   However, I disagree with those fundamentals.

How is this relevant to the conversation?

You need to stop trying to discredit Marshall at every opportunity.

It’s getting boring.

don’t know what gird is.

this is what the orthopedic told us when we strained the rotator cuff last fall:

a loose shoulder is one of the things that allows good pitchers to throw hard. loose is fast and you dance on the edge of too loose which causes injury and loose which allows the range of motion to throw hard.

whether or not it is a cause or effect is arguable. it is clear that the ability to do this is present in those who throw hard. that is why you must strengthen the muscles of the shoulder to maximum levels without tightening them, and when you reach levels of fatigue in the muscles you must stop immediately.

most gymnasts cannot normally do full splits, but over time doing an aggressive stretching program they can achieve full splits without injury.

in my opinion, externally rotating the arm until the forearm is horizontal is safe. if you cannot do this naturally, i think you need to stretch until you can maintain this level of flexibility, then agressively strengthen the little shoulder muscles. this much flexibility is consistently exhibited in hard throwing elite level pitchers.

however i am not a physical therapist or medical doctor. take it for what it is worth.

kind of like using the smith machine for squats and always doing squats on your heels.

laflippin, are you saying that jobes basically do nothing for a pitcher?

getting back to the original post, is this external rotation when the forearm is all the way back is this something that pitchers try to do or just naturally happens when you throw?

Do NOT consciously try to do this. It happens when all of the elements happen with good timing. Try this. Stand with your elbow bent at 90 degrees, forearm pointing up and upper arm horizontal. Now, with only conscious muscle exertion, try to lay your forearm back. Dusty says he can “throw” it back. Don’t do that. Just lay it back without any momentum causing it to do so. Maybe it’s just me but I can’t go very far back at all. Most can’t, I’ll guess. Dusty, can you do that without any help from momentum? Just start with the forearm up and pull back.

ya i can only bend it back about halfway just standing up like u said dm, but how do pitchers have their arms all the way back when their about to release the ball.

www.acepitcher.com/article1.html
look at nolan ryans picture here

it is natural when the shoulders turn to throw the weight of the ball and the momentum makes the forearm lay back… i cant “throw” it back at all just standing up and trying to externally rotate but i have seen my own frame by frame video of my mechanics and i get the forearm back pretty far, this happens by itself when i throw hard, so im guessing it does the same in other pitchers… it doesnt get any where near guys like randy johnson but it is significantly more than just trying to do it with no ball or momentum

re: "laflippin, are you saying that jobes basically do nothing for a pitcher? "

-----Absolutely not! I’ve been studying Mike Marshall for several years… but as a voodoo cult phenomenon, not as a legitimate pitching coach. In my opinion, he has degenerated into a con artist who spreads disinformation like manure to grow his twisted little stories into “facts”.

I personally think that Mike Marshall and his cult followers are goofy at best, and deliberately deceitful at worst.

I pasted Marshall’s goofy critique of Jobe’s protocols so that the LTP pitching community could have that specific insight into the MM cult mentality at its fingertips.

[quote=“dusty delso”]

most gymnasts cannot normally do full splits, but over time doing an aggressive stretching program they can achieve full splits without injury.

…[/quote]

Do most gymnasts do 500lb squats?